I was hoping the more experienced dancers on this site could either advise me differently, or confirm what I am thinking about the Viennese Waltz.
In particular, I sometimes find myself kind of stuck in one place, or a small general area, going around and around in circles until myself or my partner are too dizzy to keep going.
I know there are some turns and whisks and points that you can do to break up the VW, but just from a general standpoint of moving more briskly along the floor -- would that be accomplished mostly by the cross body lead? Is that the only way to really get the high-energy look of the dance.
I struggle a bit with taking longer steps in the VW as well, as it usually results in me being off timing a bit. I have noticed a friend of mine and his wife do a very nice VW, but he takes very small steps. I was always under the impression that one should take long, almost lunging type steps to "cover more ground" so to speak. Any advice on the above would be appreciated.
I believe the questions would apply to both Standard and Smooth style, though I am a bit more familiar with American Smooth. Of all of the dances, the VW seems the most similar in both styles.

V.W. . in either style ( Amer / Intern. )from a very basic standpoint, needs to address the Natural turn, to lay the foundation for rotation.


The Amer.style is a much more " adventurous " style than the Intern. The variety in the Intern. is also very limited in comparison.

You really need prof. help, to be taught the dynamics of rotation thru the Natural turn . When that has been achieved, add the " change " steps, and go to the Reverse rotation .

By the way, in Intern. NO CBL or Whisks .

Thanks, terence. That makes sense. I did notice on the videos on this site for the VW that the international style did not have as many options or entries to view.
Is there no CBL in international because it is considered somewhat of a break of hold/frame? While it is not the natural turn, per se, the CBL has a "natural" feel to it and seems to be a good way to cover a lot of ground, while still looking fluid and on the beat in this rather quick dance.
One of my major hangups on the VW has always been the (man's) third step -- does the left foot really pass in front of the right, or does it just close next to the right foot? And if it does pass, is there any specific distance, such as the entire foot passes, or just part of the foot, etc.? When I watch Jonathan dance on the site's videos, his left foot on step 3 appears to be crossing his right, but it happens so quickly, there are times when it doesn't seem to pass at all.
It makes me wonder if the word "crossing" even applies here? Is it really a different type of action? I have seen some dancers kind of "cheat" on the third step by having their left foot go behind the right. I would consider myself guilty of that if I am struggling to stay on the beat.

I'm only guessing (because I haven't seen your movement), but mention of a high energy 'look' to VW troubles me.

The rotation needs to 'look' effortless, but with the correct technique, you can achieve strong rotation with good flight across the floor, while maintaining good contact and with your rise under control. It's easy to get wrong, but a decent teacher can set you on the right path.

What you should do is take private lessons from someone who is known for the V Waltz.You will have to just invest in some quality instruction.If you are dancing Smooth you dance at 54 mpm. If you dance Standard you dance at 60 mpm. Some of the Smooth patterns are not designed or suggested to be danced that fast.You just need more info, technique and more mileage.Have fun:)

dheun. If you dont get Profession help on this dance it will fiish up becoming a mess. You appear to be now writting about the Reverse V. Waltz where on the man's third step and the ladies sixth step there is what is known as a Viennese Cross. In other dances the Tango for instance, there is a step which we call a V. Cross which is usually followed by an Throwaway Oversway. Back to the Reverse V. Waltz.
As the man crosses on that third step the lady does not. She brings the feet together as does the man on the sixth step. In the International style the rise and fall is almost none existent and is only what is needed to complete the steps.. On the Reverse, you will lower the heel to the floor immediately on the cross.
On the Natural Turn in the V, Waltz the feet for both parties close they do not cross. There is rise and fall.
There is more. When entering into the Natural and starting in on your right foot you should be facing Diag to the centre. This is to stop any over rotating which is what I beleive you are doing. Which will ruin anything you do from there on.
On the Natural if you are moving across the floor towards the wall dont.
You should be going down the LOD.
As I said you need help.

Int'l Viennese is considered somewhat of a compulsory dance, so everybody sticks to a very specific limited number of patterns -- Nine, to be exact. The flow of traffic is meant to be continuous and uninterrupted, and so the patterns (with one exception, the Fleckerl) maintain this continuity.

Other patterns *could* be incorporated that would maintain this flow, however, I imagine it was decided that the limited number of patterns help keep the Viennese an honest and pure demonstration of basic dance technique. So even patterns that do fall within the realm of acceptable for the other Int'l dances are still not allowed in Viennese Waltz.

There was a proposition to add a handful of extra patterns to the Viennese a few years ago, including Canter Pivots and a Left Whisk. Initially some of the amateur organizations approved, while the professional organizations turned their noses up. I don't know what became of that. Perhaps someone here does.

There are many versions of the Cross-Body Lead. Watch our Bronze Watz video and you'll see us dance two versions, one in contact and one in open hold. The basic one typically described in the Bronze American syllabus does not break from body contact. Depending on who you talk to, cross-body position in contact is either promenade (man's right corner to lady's center line) or same-foot position (lady's left corner to man's center line). Since both are contact positions, either interpretation would technically be acceptable in Int'l style.

However, the question is not so much of whether such a pattern would be "allowed" in Int'l style. As long as you stay in contact, you *could* dance a XBL in Int'l style. But because it's such a distinctly American idea, Int'l dancers simply don't.

To be perfectly honest, I would never dance the most basic contact version of a XBL myself, even in American style. As a syllabus pattern in contact, its purpose is primarily academic. We call this type of figure a "stepping stone", a pattern whose main function is to prepare a student for either another related pattern, or in this case, a more advanced version of itself. The Cross-Body Lead's true purpose is more apparent when you break into open position and use it to precede more advanced patterns later on, namely inside underarm turns.

In real-world dancing, as a substitution for 4-6 of the Reverse/Left Cross Turn, the contact XBL is unnecessarily complex, without any particular gains. The movement does not flow quite as well as a basic Reverse Turn. Furthermore, as the pattern speeds up, the subtle differences tend to water down, such that at Viennese tempo, the average person watching would not be able to detect them (except, perhaps, for the lady's head position, which itself is optional). Watch our demonstration of the XBL in American Viennese and you'll see what I mean.

The effectiveness of stepping stone patterns as a teaching tool often comes into question. Depending on the "size" of the figurative step and the ability of the student, often it's more expedient just to teach the more advanced version from the beginning. The joke about the XBL is that the contact version is actually quite a bit more difficult to execute correctly than the supposedly more advanced version.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Yes, there was a "move " quite recently( and also in the distant past ), that was not made public,

I happened to get first hand info. on the conflict of Addition and Rejection of additional figures . It came as a surprise to me, as to who the principal objectors were. .

As to CBL, the figure is very widely used in Amer.style, in Open and Closed position in both the Smooth and Rhythm dances, and probably was adapted from WCS or Bolero .
And if one wanted to make a comparison of CBL in Intern. style, then a " Wing " is to all intents and purposes, just that ...

It has even taken on a life of its own, now being used to identify a specific style of Salsa ( which is really inaccurate in its meaning )

Let me start by addressing the issue of dizziness. Before you add extra patterns, which increase difficulty, consider changing direction of turn more often. No matter how well you dance the pattern, you'll get dizzy very quickly if you continue to turn in only one direction. By periodically reversing your rotation, you prevent dizziness from setting in.

I recommend at least 4 and no more than 8 measures (that's 2-4 complete turns) at a time. Pros often phrase the dance by taking 7 measures of turn, then change on measure 8. If this is too much for you, forget phrasing and cut it down to 4 or 6 measures. The other consideration is room size: Dance the correct number of measures to allow you to keep your Reverses on the long side and your Naturals around the short. On anything less than a full competition-sized floor, you may need to shorten your phrases to accommodate the size of the room.

In American style, you have many additional options at your disposal to help break up the monotony and fight dizziness as well. Once you've mastered the basic pattern of Naturals, Changes and Reverses, try adding some of the typical bronze variations such as Hesitations, Open Break & Underarm Turn, Side-by-Side Runs or Changes, and any of the various patterns involving Explosions and Changes of Places.

I'm not going to go so far as to say "Size doesn't matter", but it probably doesn't in the way you think.

Big steps aren't what make Viennese (or any dance, for that matter) smoother. There is something to be said for *relative* size; That is to say, the size of the step should be correct relative to one's partner. At the wrong time, either partner can take a step that is too small... or too big. In closed position when moving forward or back, or sideways without turn, the correct step is one that is exactly the same size as one's partner's. When moving sideways through a turn (such as step 2 or 5 of the basic Natural or Reverse), the person on the outside of the turn must take a slightly larger step.

Rather than getting hung up on the actual size of the step, I recommend you pay greater attention to three things: (1) The quality of the forward step, (2) the timing of your rotation relative to your progression (i.e. CBM), and (3) your direction across your first step.

(1) Forward Step
Beginners often attempt to turn at the expense of everything else. When moving forward or back, pay close attention to the moving foot and knee. Make sure that they align with the orientation of the body and direction of movement. If the foot is placed turned-out, the movement will become stifled. (Think about what happens when you do this on ice skates).

A great way to test your foot alignment is to put your hands together in the shape of a gun with index fingers pointing forward. Place it against your belly button, pointing forward. Walk forward, curving the movement slightly. When the foot lands, look down to see if the foot is aligned with the fingers.

(2) CBM
Beginners don't typically turn too much; They simply turn at the wrong time. The timing of your rotation is extremely important in executing a smooth and effortless turn.

This can get very complex, so let me outline a very simple version for starters: As you turn, one side of the body passes the other. As you walk, one foot passes the other. To achieve a good balance of rotation to progression, try to make the two timings match.

For example, step 1 of Reverse Turn: Start with feet together, pointing down line of dance, weight on right foot. Before you step, "wind up" by turning your body only (no feet) to the right. As your left foot moves along the floor, start turning to the left. Turn at such a speed that as the right foot catches up to the left, the body arrives in "neutral", or aligned directly down line of dance. As the right foot begins to move forward, keep turning to the left so that the right side advances with the foot. By the time the body arrives over the right foot, it has become a side step.

Congratulations! You have successfully matched the timing of the rotation to the speed of the step.

(3) Direction
You may hear a teacher tell you to move "through, not around" your partner. If so, they are specifically referring to your direction between steps 1 and 2. As you move across your first step, your direction should not divert to the side. The more it does, the more difficult it becomes to pass your partner. And progressive half turns are accomplished by passing one's partner, not by circling around them.

A good exercise for beginners is to use a floor guide. If you can't find a section of floor with some sort of natural marking, try using some form of masking tape to create a straight line. First, dance a quarter turn (forward, side, close) by yourself, making sure all 3 steps are placed exactly on the line. Once comfortable, try with a partner. The person moving forward must be able to maintain all 3 steps on the line. The person moving backward will need to divert toward the inside of turn, and therefore slightly off track.

These concepts are not simple, and take many lessons and hours of practice to master. But just having an awareness of the problems and corresponding solutions should give you a good start. With any luck, it may be just enough to get you moving a little bit. After that, get some help, and you should able to dance an easy, comfortable Viennese in no time!

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Waltz 123. There were a few aditions to the V. Waltz about five years ago. The only ones being used are the Contra Check and the Pivots which we see all the time. I can't imagine any one using a Whisk but I am pretty sure it was included in the changes. This was reported on Dancesport UK in Articles and Interviews.