[Note: my original title for this thread was truncated by the site's software. I had intended it to read "Suggestion: A new section - 'Consumers' Corner'?"]

I recently had a less-than-positive experience with with an instructional DVD I purchased from a well-known producer. The producer's web site is set up so that consumers can post reviews of the products. Their directions for posting reviews claims they want feedback on the bad as well as the good.

I posted a review, mentioning a few positive attributes, but also (politely) pointing out several flaws, one of which, IMHO, was HUGE (more on that that in a bit). That was more than a month ago. The web site still does not link to my review: in fact, it claims "There are no reviews currently available for this product."

Let's just say that upon observing this, I started to get real cynical, real quick. But - as I said, this firm has a bit of a name, and I've spent a bit of money with them over the years. So, I sent them an e-mail, detailing what had happened, and the reasons I found fault with the DVD in question. I also asked that if he thought I was being unfair in my assessment of the DVD, that I would like to hear his side of the story. The CEO sent a message back, saying only that he's having his secretary "look into it." That was more than a week ago. I've heard nothing since, and the web site still hasn't posted a review - mine or anybody else's.

Yeah, I know: color me "shocked" that someone trying to sell something might try to withhold information from the public that might hurt sales. But it does raise a question in my mind: is there any place where you can go for reviews of material before you buy it? If not, would the members here find it valuable to create a new section to this web site that would fill this need? I don't know how the web masters might feel about this, or what work it might entail, but to me, it seems like it could be a valuable addition to the site.

At first, I thought such a thing might be called "Critics' Corner," but realized that name might encourage only negative comments. So I thought a "Consumers' Corner" might be more neutral, and encourage positive as well as negative. I would think that who ever posts there would have to include key information about themselves: whether they are social dancers (and if so, what their experience level is) or if they are competitors (and likewise, state their their level). This would allow others to take the reviewer's perspective into account while reading about a DVD (or other instructional material).

Knowing that such a resource was available to potential customers might also encourage producers to police themselves a little better.

What type of flaw am I talking about? Well, I not quite ready to name names -- I'll give it another week or so before doing that, and assuming the web master here has no objection - just to give a little more time for a response from the CEO in question.

But, as an example, the DVD I bought was bronze level, on a general category of dances figures - and the title of the DVD billed it as being for "all dance styles" -- presumably, that would include such things as social dancing.

Yet, after having watched the DVD twice, I found no instance in which the instructors even once mentioned a "lead" or how to "follow." IIRC, the dancers started each lesson figure standing totally apart, in positions that were often identical and not touching: meaning there was not even the possibility of a lead being given. So, instead having learned something suitable for incorporation into my social dancing, what was presented was only appropriate for choreographed routines: meaning for my purposes, it was useless. I felt I had been ripped off.

Quite simply, the product did not deliver what it had promised, and that is something I think anybody considering purchasing the product ought to have the ability to find out ahead of time. It doesn't seem likely the seller will share the information. So: why not ballroomdancers.com ?

Does anybody else have experiences, good or bad, that might be appropriate for such a new section? It might be something that is little used, but might be extremely valuable to those who use. I kind of envision something like a "movie review," short but akin to what may appear in the local newspaper concerning Hollywood's latest.

For what it is worth, I have a modest collection of DVDs and VHS instructional tapes, and could provide a few "reviews" to start things off, if Jonathan or others are interested... from my perspective of being a social dancer, probably just bronze level though with quite a few years of experience, and who teaches a little bit....

Amazon dot com

Was it perchance "Ballroommix*" on eBay? I bought a DVD and it was completely useless as both a learning tool and as an example of good dancing. The description was very misleading. I told them so and they refunded my money. They still have not adjusted their product descriptions, however.

The material on a bronze dvd probably is perfectly leadable.

However, the habit of some students of insistently asking "what is the lead for this" shows a noble concern, but a degree of misunderstanding of how dancing works: most of the "lead" is simply the leader doing his part clearly, accurately, informed by an ability to visualize how it will unfold for two bodies (who is on inside vs outside of turn for example).

There are situations in teaching when I call specific attention to a detail of the man's action by pointing out how it influences the lady to do one of two related figures, but thats a small minority of the overall instruction. Most of teaching figures is just about covering the details with accuracy, but most of teaching dancing is not teaching figures but teaching the physical skills needed to create those details.

One might think it wouldnt work for followers to learn figures by seeing and copying a lady demonstrating in isolation, but as with the man, communication is only a small part of her needed skills. Mostly what she needs to do is train the muscles and reflexes of her body to execute the various kinds of actions that spell out dance figures, while preserving the kind of balance and agility that will keep her able to respond to what the man does next. She can only dance responsively to him to the degree that her body and reflexes have been trained to be good at the kinds of component actions that make up the figures he might lead. If she is still recovering her equilibrium from the previous action, shes going to be too distracted to accurately feel the evolution of what he's up to now.

Most of a dancer's intentional effort goes into getting good at the actions. When communication isnt impeded by for example bullishly sticking to a difficult routine, but instead a couple dances a variety of things within their comfort, good lead and follow builds without that much explicit thought. And its a skill portable to other partners.

A product review section sounds like a good idea on its face. I really like a set of DVDs I have that were recommended by a past American champion. His suggestion has been a blessing to me. But the addition of such on Ballroondancers might create a negative perception for the web site. I can imagine that certain advertisers might see that as bad press at times; whereas, if a user posts a qustion, etc., on their own, it's just free speach not percieved as targeted or solicted by the web site's creators. It might be wise for the curious to continue to pose their questions to the interested. Then it wouldn't seem as if the site is seeking to promote or criticize any given product. As it is, we, the interested, are fortunate to have this site to discuss our concerns and more.

anymouse, that's a great explanation of leading and following. I copied and pasted it in my "dance discussion topics" folder on my computer as I believe it is a message worth instilling in those I am trying to teach, as well as for myself and my partner.
Thanks.

Hi to all those who responded.

I've been sick for few days, so I'll try to catch up now:

terence2, thank you for the reference to dance forums. After seeing your note, I did a search for "dance forums review" but only got one hit: it was dedicated to salsa dancing. I suspect there might be more. Can you provide a link?

sifuguy, the product I was referring to is apparently not available on Amazon.com, so there aren't any reviews there....

eeyore, no, the product I wrote about was not "Ballroommix." I am unfamiliar with that product entirely - and perhaps that is a good thing.

anymouse, you have spoken some truth, and certainly, I agree that the material on a bronze DVD *SHOULD* be perfectly leadable. However, I believe you missed a couple of key points in my original post.

First, each lesson - there are some 15 on the DVD - STARTS with the dancers totally separate: i.e., not touching in any manner, and with a respectable amount of air between them. Unless there is a convention, or pre-existing understanding between the two dancers, how is the follower suppose to know if he/she is to stand still, move left, right, back, forward, up or down? Unless the leader is one of those "men who stare at goats," I don't see any possible way for a "lead" to happen - no matter how much or how well the leader visualizes interacting with his/her partner.

At least to my experience, there are also multiple ways of proceeding from most positions in dance. Indeed, many of the figures on this DVD start from positions which to my eyes seem identical.

In fact, as a quick experiment, I just re-watched the first three lessons. Each started in an identical position: the instructors even used the same name to describe it. In the first two, the lady did a spin in towards her partner. In the third, she took a step straight back. In all three cases, the leader's first move was quite different. That fact is of no help to the lady -- because she starts with her back to the man! Huh? How is that suppose to work? How is either party suppose to visualize and prepare for what will happen? Especially since an error could mean a real mess (and in more ways than one) on the floor?

Also, this is a bronze level video: the title says it's actually "Beginning-Intermediate," as well as for "all styles" of dance. This begs a more basic question: if YOUR experience in teaching shows many beginning or bronze students ask about leads, shouldn't the "Champion" instructors have also been able to anticipate such questions, and address the matter? Especially since any video is a one-way communication to a broad audience, doesn't the instructor NEED to anticipate questions?

I'll repeat: given the title and the way this DVD was marketed, it is a rip-off, suitable IMHO only for choreographed routines. I also mentioned I asked the producer to correct me if I was in anyway unfair concerning my assessment of the video. And so far, all that's happened is a notable ducking of the question.

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Anymouse,

Sometimes I believe you are a genius. You have a gift when it comes to explaining things few understand about dancing.

The patterns, no matter how difficult are just patterns, but what you described is the heart and soul of what makes a true dancer ♫

This is a little bit stabbing in the dark since you have seen the dvd in question and we havent, but could there be some confusion between material intended as a technical exercise to build physical skills and reflexes, vs material intended as something to incorporate in a dance?

I dont believe that more than briefly seperated "choereography" belongs in a bronze or beginner applied dance, but solo or otherwise preplanned drills have a key role in mastering actions, particularly in the latin dances. In some places these are even done at socials as line dances.