So are you ready to admit that there is a smaller swing on the inside of most turns, occuring at the same time as that on the outside, but sized to the needs of the partner on the outside?

One of those very high profile Professionals as part of his lecture had everybody hold hands with their partner both facing the same way side by side. The person to the right started to turn anti -clockwise and keep the person who is at an arms length level. After one complete turn the person on the outside then took the centre and the roles were reversed clockwise. We were then told to think of the Double Reverse Spin . How the lady is first on the inside and then the outside and make sure she does not haul off without her partner when she is on the inside of the turn. The man the same.
Such a lot of writting to describe something we have done many times as a child in the playground.

"We were then told to think of the Double Reverse Spin . How the lady is first on the inside and then the outside and make sure she does not haul off without her partner when she is on the inside of the turn. The man the same."

This inside vs. outside difference was never in doubt, as its something we have both stated numerous times throughout the thread.

The key lesson though is that this does not necessarily preclude the person on the inside from executing a swing. In fact they can swing - at full scale dancing will usually have to - but they must take the difference in size of movement between the inside and outside of the turn into account.

And just as important as that, they must take the desired overall amount of movement for the couple into account. With beginners the person on the inside may stop dead; with advanced competitors (especially in the natural figures where the swing is larger), the person on the inside will probably need to swing further on the inside of turn than most beginners would comfortably swing when on the outside of turn, because the whole thing is that much bigger over all.

As we all know( or should know ) there is no Sway or Swing on a Double Revers Spin.

"As we all know( or should know ) there is no Sway or Swing on a Double Revers Spin."

There is no sway in the classic version of course.

As for swing, unless you are importing the figure into tango there should be a degree of swing to the character of movement, but its of the category of figures where the swing is the least obvious - is both a reverse figure (which tends to have smaller swing than natural figures) and a heel turn (which tends to have smaller swing than ordinary turns)

The confusion comes in becomes the most dramatic examples of swing - things like the waltz the natural turn and the foxtrot feather step have a swing that results in a sideways incline of the body. But swing is fundamentally a character of movement in which the vertical and horizontal motion of the center are coupled, not an incline of the body. Downswings for example do not generally feature body incline.

CBM on 1, so yes, swing.

Anonymous Usually the word Swing is reserved for a body that is swinging past. A meterite swung past the earth. We wouldn't say the earth swung past the meteorite. The boat swung around whilst turning. Which is one side is travelling further than the other. If that didn't happen it is still going in a straight line. Or a Gyroscope. If the outside isn't travelling faster and a greater distance. Then its not a Gyroscope. Which leads me to beleive that the word swing in dancing is for the person on the outside of the turn and not the person on the inside.
Let the person on the inside of the Swing follow the instigator of the Swing, which if body contact is maintained must be delayed NFR and will be a smaller action. Just like the Gyroscope whose action is centrifugal.The centre does not Swing.
Is there anybody else, apart from my friend, who has been told to Swing when on the inside of a turn.
John Wood on his Tape went to great lengths to explain that from a Promenade Posiion going into a Running Weave. If both travell at the same time at the same speed covering the same distance. In theory the man will never get around to where he should be. But he will he added, because he will use his strong left arm and push the lady out of the way.He also said. But that isn't the way it is done. Is it.

"Anonymous Usually the word Swing is reserved for a body that is swinging past. A meterite swung past the earth."

And that is what a dancer does - moves on a path through space that is curved in the vertical plane due in large part to the effect of the earth's gravity.

The existence of a partner is irrelevant to that. It only comes in for determining how big the swing should be - larger for the person on the outside but smaller for the person on the inside.

"Which leads me to beleive that the word swing in dancing is for the person on the outside of the turn and not the person on the inside."

I hope that you are not under the mistaken impression that you swing around your partner, because you have in the past recognized that the movement are generally straight lines across the floor during step 1, and that means that the only direction in which the swing can curve at that time is in the vertical one.


"Let the person on the inside of the Swing follow the instigator of the Swing, which if body contact is maintained must be delayed NFR and will be a smaller action."

Smaller, yes, and the foot action is NFR but as you would see with Marcus and Karen on that video is it not delayed at all, but occurs as a continuous movement at the same time the person on the outside is moving. There simply is no pause on the inside with real dancers of that level. If it were delayed, then the person on the outside would have to curve their path to maintain a constant distance from the temporarily non-moving inside partner.

"Just like the Gyroscope whose action is centrifugal."

No, not at all like a gyrscope, because the path across the floor is NOT CURVED.

"The centre does not Swing."

On the contrary, in many situations such as downswings or the upswing into the double reverse it effectively the only thing that swings. The whole body goes along for the ride, but does not develop an incline, so you can reduce it to a simpler model of a point mass at the center of mass.

"If both travell at the same time at the same speed covering the same distance. In theory the man will never get around to where he should be."

Which is why, as I have been saying all along, you must travel at the same time, but NOT at the same speed and NOT cover the same distance.

Anonymous. I only got to paragraph five.
We have a horizontal Swing. not vertical . Your left hip on the first three of a Natural Turn will travel further than your right. If you ever try one of those Dance Frames you will discover this very quickly. For want of a better word the move shouldn't be cut.
John Wood on his tape Talks about a centripetal force as well as centrifugal. Centripetal is the one we are concerned with. I think he knows what he is talking about.I think that maybe you are getting Centripetal muddled with Centrifugal.
Telemark. Who told you that two people both Swing at the same time. That is the question. Was it an instructor. No two people should Swing at the same time. It should be . You go. I go. Not both go. If you are dancing American Smooth and are at arms length with your partner this might change the situation. I wouldn't know. I don't know the style.
Do you know what the footwork is on steps 4 5 6 of the Natural in the SVW.
Its flat flat flat according to Richard Gleave. No rise and fall feet flat on the floor. Then you Swing on steps 1 2 3. as your partner is flat flat flat. With that footwork and technique who could Swing . Who would want to and for what reason.

"We have a horizontal Swing. not vertical ."

That is only possible if your path of movement across the floor is curved at the time when you are swinging, which is to say the transitions between steps 3-1 and 1-2.

Mine is NOT curved there for most applications, and based on your past comments I would have thought yours was not either.

But apparently you do believe in curving those step ones after all. Otherwise you can't have a horizontal swing.

Unless you are willing to curve the path on the floor, the only direction in which your swing can curve is the vertical one.

"Telemark. Who told you that two people both Swing at the same time."

I guess you still haven't watched that Marcus and Karen Hilton video, as if you had that is exactly what you would have seen. Neither dancer pauses in the slightest when they are on the inside of an ordinary turn - they move continuously, but simply do so more slowly than their partner on the outside.

"No rise and fall feet flat on the floor. Then you Swing on steps 1 2 3. as your partner is flat flat flat. With that footwork and technique who could Swing ."

For a perfect example of swing without foot rise, I'd refer you to the second measure of that Marcus & Karen Hilton basic waltz video, in which you will see on the first step Marcus execute a healthy swing with no foot rise, on the INSIDE of an impetus. Meanwhile, Karen is executing an even larger swing on the outside.