"Anonymous. The door is to show you where the point of balance is, A runner would understand this. Now that we have the point of balance do we try to maintain that balance, and let our under carriage carry us ?. "

No, we MUST NOT try to maintain that balance unless we are doing an abstract exercise (which can have it benefits).

If we are to (use your words) to "let our under carriage carry us" then we must be willing to let our body weight move across and past our standing foot - we must not try to hold it in place.

In actual dancing, the portion of rise and fall accomplished via the knee must never be performed with the body weight stationary. Doing so would cause the knee to project in front of the body and we can't have that. Instead, the body must move to stay over the standing knee as it bends. This will soon send your center of weight forward past the end of the standing toe - at which point you will be off balance.

Going off balance in this way is a natural part of any ordinary forward walk, even if the knee does not bend - there still comes a time when the leg has carried the body past the toe of the only foot which is bearing weight. Only particular types of altered walks - pointing the feet into position ahead of the body - avoid this, normal walking by a healthy adult always goes through this phase of imbalance. As I said before, video tape yourself and you will be suprised.

But when we bend our knee to lower, it is even more apparent - the knee bends forward, the body goes with it. When the knee passes the end of the toe, the body center also passes the end of the toe, and we are off balance. Of course this off balance does not cause any more problem than the off balance that has occured in the majority of the non-dancing walking steps we have taken throughout our lives.

If you try to dance your knee portions of rise and fall with the body weight stationary over the foot, you are going to have to make one of three compromises:

1) Hold you hips further away from your partner so that you don't knee them, by arching your back. But arching your back is BAD.

2) Move your entire body further away from your partner and dance with space in the hold. This ins't a bad idea for beginners learning to understand what balance is, while maintaing good posture. It also lets them learn to have a sensitive frame. But soon they will feel pressured to close the hold, and to do that properly they will have to learn about the times when they should not be balanced (the times when the weight must pass the end of the foot), hopefully while retaining their skills to balance at the times when they should be balanced over the foot.

3) You interlace your knees with your partner to an absurdly intimate degree. Are you dancing waltz or lambada? Also, some of the videos here have shown one partner's body physically lifted by the presence of the other's knee.

"Now you have taken the door which is our guide, held it in front like a shield our knees hips and so forth are behind the shield all moving forward together. That is the way to lower. Except something you have missed. The front knee thigh , call it leg has got to go under the table."

The reason for holding the shield in front of you is to reinforce the fact that the moving knee must not be allowed to project through the shield. Instead, as it moves forwad, the body, hip, shoulder, and the shield that represents their position must move forward with it, in vertical alignment.

It is true that there will come a time when the other leg, which is to say the moving leg, will need to break through the shield and be placed somewhat ahead ready to receive the body weight. But this should be late in the progress of the step, for at least two reasons:

1) Bringing the leg through later keeps it in your space and out of your partner's space, so you are less likely to knee them or lift their body off the floor with your thigh

2) The free leg weighs a lot, and if it is out in front of your body it will make you loose balance (reach administrators point of no return) sooner. On the other hand, if you keep the moving leg behind your body as long as possible, this will let you project your body weight into the step while delaying the loss of balance as long as possible.

A number of world leading teachers recommend leaving the moving leg stationary at its old position on the floor as long as possible, while the body moves forward. More generally, you should swing the moving leg as late as you possibly can while still insuring that it will be in position to smoothly catch your body weight as you body flight off the standing leg.

"This is what we do not do walking normal, unless your Groucho Marx."

In normal walking, the swing of our free leg happens in response to the movement of our body through and beyond balance over our standing foot. In dancing, we want to emphasize this linkage, not pre-empt it (except of course in tango where the leg will move first)

"To me it would seem that you tilt the door or your body weight forward to arrive at an imbalanced position."

NO! Abosolutely no tilting involved. Simply a horizontal progress of the body across the foot, until it is beyond the foot. All while maintainging perfect alignment of the spine, and as near as humanly possible to alignment of the standing shoulder, hip, and knee vertically over each other as they travel forward together.

"Tilt that door forward and you've found yourself completely off balance. In fact your body would be in front of your toes and your knees."

The body should not tile. It will eventually be ahead of the knee, but the phase of action that I am trying to communicate to you is earlier, and during this the body is positioned directly over the standing knee, and advancing forward together with it. As you leave the standing foot further behind (as the standing knee starts to straighten) then the body will get ahead of the standing knee. And of course the body has retained vertical alignment throughout.

"Now you would have to take the next step or fall flat on your face."

Bingo - you have to take the next step. There is a point in the lowering beyond which you can no longer pause and lecture your students about the body position you are holding it - there is a point at which you have to take another step, either a full one, or a checking action if someone has wandered into your way.

"But you have just written that everything is behind the shield and lowered.Which means you are now singing another song."

I've been talking about a phase of action which you still seem unaware of despite dozens of posts explaining it. This is the phase in which the body is ahead of the standing foot and off balance, but no part of the body or the moving foot has yet broken through this shield that we are carrying. Of course this is not the whole story - the next phase of the action sees the moving leg break through the shield, at which point the shield is of course no longer a valuable visual aid.

"The reason for holding the shield in front of you is to reinforce the fact that the moving knee must not be allowed to project through the shield. Instead, as it moves forwad, the body, hip, shoulder, and the shield that represents their position must move forward with it, in vertical alignment."

My appologies - that should of course be the STANDING knee. It is the standing knee over which the body advanced in vertical alignment, and the standing knee which must not break through this shield conceptually carried in front of the body.

Later in the action, the moving leg will indeed break through it to some degree. But not as many would imagine to the point where the body is halfway between the feet - it should always by biased closer to the front foot.

STOP IT PLEASE I'M TIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous. Many years ago, too many years ago. In the Waltz we used to lower and step forward at the same time. A bent or flexed knee was never mentioned. The Foxtrot was very straight legged, again bending the knee before a Reverse Turn or any other turn was not mentioned. Even with this style or trend it was possible to make it look good, and we didn't know any better. Quickstep hasn't altered much. The way the Basics are done there is no difference.
Walks in the Tango and a Link are very nearly the same as it was years ago. It is still a walking dance.
It is in the Waltz and the Foxtrot. The couples get far lower to the floor than ever before, before we didn't try because nobody taught this way. If you are taught this way your leg on a Walk will be in front, which it is on those images in the Learning Center The more the knee is bent the wider in length the leg, foot will go. Doing the the splitz is a good example, it shows that it would be impossible to get the weight over the front foot with that much extension. After looking at the images go to Learn the Dances. Waltz will do Natural Turn. Now you tell me that the front leg is anywhere other than where I have been saying it should be for some considerable time now. It costs nothing to look so go there, See how the lady shapes. In fact she looks very much like my teacher in build and poise. Do I see any shaping by the man. I'll bet the shape of the ladies right arm went right over your head as well, and the position of the left hand. And why is it so, its because the lady is farther to her left than in those olden days. and the contact is right side to right side. That's enough.

Quickstep said: "Also when Jonathan posted a row of stills showing that the leg is in front of the body"

To which Anonymous replied: "Outside leg, not comparable to the situation of the inside leg in an inside action. Which you won't find video that clearly showcases, because the sight lines are obstructed."

Anonymous also now saying: "Later in the action, the moving leg will indeed break through it to some degree. But not as many would imagine to the point where the body is halfway between the feet - it should always by biased closer to the front foot."


Anonymous,

If not a complete turnaround, you most certainly have 'softened' from your extreme position you held a while on on the 'moving leg' moving in advance of the body. At that the time you mostly most certainly were arguing that the 'moving leg' does not extend beyond the body AT ALL. Inside, outside leg whatever you did'nt make any such qualification clear. I also retorted with very much the same statement as the my last quote of what you are now saying and you argued against that.

Rha

"If not a complete turnaround, you most certainly have 'softened' from your extreme position you held a while on on the 'moving leg' moving in advance of the body. At that the time you mostly most certainly were arguing that the 'moving leg' does not extend beyond the body AT ALL. Inside, outside leg whatever you did'nt make any such qualification clear. I also retorted with very much the same statement as the my last quote of what you are now saying and you argued against that."

There are general ideas, and then there are specifics. When the specific case is also the most common, it makes sense to put the emphasis on that. Especially when we are still dealing with those who refuse to recognize the need to get the body moving off that comfortable stability over the standing foot before the moving leg starts. Later on, we can talk about the extreme of the stride - but the key principle is that it is the progress of the body weight, and not the movement of the feet, which creates natural and coordinated dancing.

"Anonymous. Many years ago, too many years ago. In the Waltz we used to lower and step forward at the same time."

We used to, and the good dancers still do. However, some students may have gotten distracted from this necessity while worrying about other technical elements.

"A bent or flexed knee was never mentioned."

As I mentioned, the body weight goes past the toe of the standing foot even if the knee does not bend - bending the knee simply makes this a more important issue to master.

"Even with this style or trend it was possible to make it look good, and we didn't know any better."

There was nothing wrong with that at all - only it does not have the dynamic which the modern eye is now used to seeing. But it is still quite worthwhile to dance that way if it suits your preference. What is not acceptable is to loose the progress of the weight inherint in that dancing when you start bending your knees - you have to keep that weight progress element, and be even more carefull of it when knee bend is used.

"It is in the Waltz and the Foxtrot. The couples get far lower to the floor than ever before, before we didn't try because nobody taught this way. If you are taught this way your leg on a Walk will be in front, which it is on those images in the Learning Center The more the knee is bent the wider in length the leg, foot will go."

That is why I consider many of those images erroneous - and I believe administrator has also commented that he now considers the moving leg to have gotten out in front too early.

Tell me this: if your moving leg is not yet bearing weight, what advantage is to be gained by having it in front of your body? The advantage of keeping it back is obvius - it can counterbalance your forward body weight, preserving balance as long as possible. And of course there will come a time when it needs to be there to receive you.

But what advantage do you hope to gain by having it out in front early? Don't quote someone's recommendation that it be there, take time to think and answer for yourself what advantage you think this will achieve.

"Doing the the splitz is a good example, it shows that it would be impossible to get the weight over the front foot with that much extension."

The possibility of arriving on the front foot or not is determined by where the foot is placed relative to the body's flight momentum. Outstep your flight and you won't arrive. Step where your flight predicts, and you will arrive easily and smoothly, and sail right through into an additional step as of course you should.

"Waltz will do Natural Turn. Now you tell me that the front leg is anywhere other than where I have been saying it should be for some considerable time now. It costs nothing to look so go there"

It is in the wrong place. If you think it is the right place, please explain in your own words not who said it should be there, but what the advantage of having it there is. Otherwise all your are doing is showing your love of trivia, with no knowledge of the dancing behind it.

"See how the lady shapes."

See how the man's standing knee is blocking and nearly lifting her body during step 4, keeping her moving foot off the floor - though the video where this was most apparent has recently been replaced.

"There are general ideas, and then there are specifics. When the specific case is also the most common, it makes sense to put the emphasis on that. Especially when we are still dealing with those who refuse to recognize the need to get the body moving off that comfortable stability over the standing foot before the moving leg starts. Later on, we can talk about the extreme of the stride - but the key principle is that it is the progress of the body weight, and not the movement of the feet, which creates natural and coordinated dancing."

I don't think you would have found any of the experienced dancers on this site refute the idea that the 'body moves before the moving leg'. Perhaps you have not been listening.

Rha

Rha. Open a door. I use my back door which opens inwards. I line my body up with the edge of the door and place my forefinger and grip with my thumb barely touching. With my hand on the edge of the door standing a comfortable distance from the edge of the door. I move forward with a heel lead and move my body along side the edge of the door. arriving as straight as my guide which is the edge of the door. I do not push my foot so far ahead that I tilt backwards. I also do not send my body forward so that I am nodding. I carry my verticle body to the verticle edge of the door. Going back to my original position still verticle my foot will have to move first. If it doesn't I am leaning backwards. Put a bit of flexing of the knee into the movement and there we have it. Now analise yourself on the forward movement . What do you need to do to start standing in a verticle position and to arrive stll verticle.
After that get away from the door and then with your partner in front with the forefingers barely touching do the whole excercise again, but this time put in a side step to the left and a side step to the right after you have moved back to position one.
The move being instigated by the body first is so slight it barely exists. I've also read from the book and the sentence above is being spoken about from a standing position. From the very first step you tell me which part arrives first.
Going backwards you tell me any dancer who doesn't move the leg first. So therefore ??? whatever it takes to maintain that verticle position moving from foot to foot, thats what we do.
Again I must say that all of the above. I am only repeating. Only the back door thing is added.