Rha. I hope your last comment that you know of no dancer on this site repute that the body moves first. You will think again and rewrite. I don't know about you but when I step backwards, my foot goes first not my body. When i step to the side my body does not go first, So that leaves the forward step. Because of my exaggerated poise I think my knee is the first to move. I have just been reading the last post. As a female i would have my lefwards pose and then using the door as a guide commence. Whatever it takes to arrive holding my shape, thats what I would do otherwise I would be constantly
readjusting after i arrived.

"Rha. I hope your last comment that you know of no dancer on this site repute that the body moves first. You will think again and rewrite."

Rha is right in that the body goes first, he just doesn't apply the concept fully enough in all situations. But he's way ahead of you.

"I don't know about you but when I step backwards, my foot goes first not my body."

The base position for a backward steps has the foot pointing back from a bent kneem, however the step itself is still taken by moving the body weight backwards through the standing foot. There's a lot of emphasis on that early extension of the foot which occurs while the knees are still fairly closed. But the real step occurs as the knees seperate some and the body moves back carrying the foot. The mechanics are complementary to the forward action - partnering would be pretty difficult if they weren't!

"When i step to the side my body does not go first"

Well it should! True, there is nobody in your way. However, if you simply send your foot, how will your partner know where you are placing it?? If you send your body and have it bring your foot, your partner's body comes with your body, and you each bring your free foot with your body, so your feet match because your bodies matched.

"So that leaves the forward step. Because of my exaggerated poise I think my knee is the first to move."

As soon as your standing foot is flat, that sounds good. However your entire body must move with your knee. Many ladies make the mistake of dancing far behing their knees - those with short legs may get away with it, but it's really not a good idea and often pulls the man off balance. Shape is something you do on top of fundamental alignment - it is not a substitute for alignment, but even many pro ladies are guilty of this.

"I have just been reading the last post. As a female i would have my lefwards pose and then using the door as a guide commence. Whatever it takes to arrive holding my shape, thats what I would do otherwise I would be constantly
readjusting after i arrived."

Not a bad idea. The key point is that you must hold, not so much your shape, but at least your alignment. If you can also maintain the shape without being resorting to being totally stiff and wooden to do it, then that's great. But remember shape is not carved in stone - it is a an expression of having a good core relationship to your partner in the hold.

"Think about it. You did conceed that the person going backwards bends the knees to the front"

I said they did intitially but that this was then counteracted by the standing knee moving backwards along with the body, something that I don't think you have yet understood the necessity of. If you dance away leaving the knee behind (or worse, projecting it forwards) you leave it there for your partner to impale himself on. Also, this is symptomatic of trying to dance off the ball of hte standing foot, rather then sending the weight to the heel and releasing the toe on time.

"If as you say you get to the point of imbalance going Forward you will have to have a straight knee to be able to do this unless you lean forward."

No. In dancing with modern lowering, I get to the point of imbalance because my bending and advancing standing knee, and the body that is directly over it, passes forward of my standing toe. I preserve balance as long as possible by delaying the swing through of the weight of my moving foot, and by training my toes for extreme strenth so I can take my point of balance all the way to the end of the standing foot. But when my body passes it, I am quite properly off balance and commited to the step.

I can also get there in a normal walk on comparatively straight legs - again as my body passes the end of the standing toe, I am no longer in balance. Everybody does this is walking down the street - modern dancers have to learn to also do it as they lower into the knee, which I have described in the previous paragraph.

"And just to remind you, you had the lady also going to the point of imbalance. Isn't that right."

Of course. Though if you have the ankle strength to do a nice toe release, whoever is going backwards can probably stay in balance longer than whoever is going forwards. They should use this not so much to physically help their forward partner (though some believe in providing "resistance"), but definitely they should take advantage of their greater control to make sure that their motion exactly matches whatever the forward partner (with the more difficult job) ends up actually doing.

"That is before you came into the bending of the knee."

As with the forward walk, it is true regardless if you choose to bend the knee or not. This was well understood in the days when the knee did not bend so much. Now that dancers are bending their knees more they are letting the vertical movement distract them from the progress of the weight through the foot, and instead accordianing up and down with their weight in place. But that is a severe mistake - the more your lower into your knees, the bigger your actions should be and thus the more maintaining the smooth and unhlating progress of your body weight is essential.

"I pretty sure it was you who said the lady lowers early and not as the foot reaches its nuetral position under the body. The book makes it very clear."

For either dancer, the lowering of the (new) standing foot relative to the closing of the free foot depends on if substantial knee lowering will be used. The dancing described in the book does not use much knee lowering, so the completion of the lowering (foot flat) matches the closure of the free foot. However, if you will use substantial knee lowering then reaching the point of foot flat is no longer the end of the lowering - it isn't even the midpoint of the lowering, but maybe about the 40% point. As a result, for the closure of the foot to coincide with the end of the lowering, it would have to occur long after the foot was flat on the floor, around the time the knee bend was reaching its lowest. But in reality, this rule is also too simple. Send the body as far into the movement before moving the free foot as you can, with the only limit being that the eventual swing of the free foot must not be too violent for a smooth overall effect.

"At this momment in time you still haven't given us your interppretation of what is written on just simply the Backward Walk."

Yes I have. For the situation that is described in the book, _approximately_ what is written, with the exception that the split weight overlap doesn't usually quite occur. What is really bothering you is that I always follow that comment by pointing out how the situation that occurs in the book was infrequent in the era of the book, and completely unseen in modern competition. We now have different situations, to which applying the same underlying rules results in a requirement for different techniques.

The book is not trying to teach you trivia - it is trying to teach you to understand dancing by using a set of examples. If you try to apply the details of those examples to different situations, then you have not learned the lesson. If on the other hand you learn the concepts from the examples and then apply them to figure out the details of technique required by the new situations of modern dancing, then you have learned something of value.

"Standing agains a door proves where your balance will be if you raise your heels and lower your knees to about 46 degrees."

It proves where your balance will be if you keep your weight stationary. But contrary to your mistaken belief, the ordinary rise and fall actions in ballroom dancing do not keep the weight stationary. Instead, the body weight is in almost constant progress, even though the feet move in discrete starts and stops. You must learn to move your body weight through your feet during the rising and falling, otherwise your dancing will be halting and choppy.

"Do you find your center of balance is over your heels which in turn is over your toes."

You heel is not over your toe even at the peak of waltz rise, unless you are wearing pointe shoes.

"The point that needs watching is as the knees bends the heel lowers. You will notice as the knees bend so the heels lower.Lets have an argument on which arrive first the heels or the knees. Only kidding."

For an ordinary full lowering, heels lower first, most of the knee bend occurs after the heel is flat. However, some actions that are not full lowering, but instead sustain an intermediate height - weave actions for example - have moderate foot rise with the knee bent. And on rising, the heel often comes up before the knee straightens, in some cases the knee even bending as the heel initially rises and only later restraightening.

Anonymous. Again a whole heap of writting to try to prove that the body gets ahead of the foot and ditto going backwards.
All you have to do is go to the videos and instruction on this site and tell me what do you see. If anybody is a bit puzzled about this go there yourself and look to see if as man or lady the body is in front of the foot.this is what Anonymous is advocating. It is as simple as that.
Instead of going on and on. I would point out that at another point way back you weren't into using the knees. And you also have written there is no nuetral position and yet you repeatedly mention the closing of the foot.
You have got so many things wrong. Like how can you get the weight over your knee and foot if the knee and foot are not there. Because according to you the body is ahead of the foot. Maybe what you should have said My feet will catch up to my body which has already gone. Please.
One final thing on a Backward Walk as it is in the book. The front position will be held as the knee bends and the toe extends to the rear. That part you don't seem to understand at all. The toe first and not head or body weight. Extending the toe, start to straighten the front knee which will send the body through midway and to the standing leg. The heel of the standing foot will lower as the other passes. Then the whole thing starts again.
If the lady is in the correct position, that is right side to right side and not man's right side to the left side, it will be almost impossible for the lady to impail herself or you. Or to clash knees or tread on toes. Please look at the position of the lady on the videos. I can see by the right arm she is well to her left which is of course correct. It just dawned on me. You have built all your dancing from the wrong positioning of the lady. You've got nowhere for the feet to go and will never be able to step out correctly as in a competition style.

"Anonymous. Again a whole heap of writting to try to prove that the body gets ahead of the foot and ditto going backwards."

Indeed.

"All you have to do is go to the videos and instruction on this site and tell me what do you see."

I see both some good points and some common mistakes being demonstrated. These are issues that even the world's best dancers struggle to get consistently right, but they are things we can all be working towards.

"Instead of going on and on. I would point out that at another point way back you weren't into using the knees."

You can dance the old way with less knee usage or the new way with more knee usage. Both are valid. As for the specific of knee usage, you have them somewhat wrong. For example, in taking a backwards step the standing knee will briefly go a short distance forward, but then will soon start moving backwards to send the body. You still misunderstand this and have the standing knee moving too far forward (against the movement) for too long. Because you are oversimplifying, you keep mis interpreting explanations of the more complicated reality as a flip-floping of position.

"And you also have written there is no nuetral position and yet you repeatedly mention the closing of the foot."

In modern dancing the is not neutral position because the closing of the foot does not coincide with the location of the body over the feet. Instead, the body has already passed beyond the standing foot before the feet close. However in less dynamic dancing something closer to a neutral position might occur. But only in the oversimplifications intially given to beginners does it occur as clearly as you seem to imagine.

"You have got so many things wrong. Like how can you get the weight over your knee and foot if the knee and foot are not there."

When using knee lowering, the knee bends forward of the standing toe. The thigh is vertical over the knee throughout this process. The hip is directly over the knee. The shoulder is directly over the knee. Obviously when the body advances with the knee in this way, when all of these elements have gotten ahead of the point of floor support, the body is off balance, so this is a temporary position you must pass through rather than one you can hold in place.

"Because according to you the body is ahead of the foot. Maybe what you should have said My feet will catch up to my body which has already gone."

Okay, sounds good.

"One final thing on a Backward Walk as it is in the book. The front position will be held as the knee bends and the toe extends to the rear. That part you don't seem to understand at all."

You are mistaken. As soon as the moving foot has passed the standing foot, the toe must start to release. Which means that the weight is already in the heel. And the knee is beginning to move back. Only if you lower onto the standing foot from a previous rise would the knee briefly bend forwad, and even then it would soon end up going back - but if we lowered, we are doing something other than a basic walk anyway.

"If the lady is in the correct position, that is right side to right side and not man's right side to the left side, it will be almost impossible for the lady to impail herself or you."

You need to more carefully consider the direction in which inline steps with CBM actually move... it is directly at the center of the partner's body of course, becuase both centers of weight must move directly in the same path of progression. There is no tolerance for detouring around your partner in smoothly flowing dancing.

"Please look at the position of the lady on the videos."

If the older waltz natural video were still up, you could see the man's standing knee on step four lifting the lady's body so far that her moving foot cannot stay on the floor.

Anonymous.As the leg extends back the supporting knees bends to the front because it is impossible for the knee to bend the other way. Unless somebody put your knees on back to front. The feeling according to Anne Lewis is a feeling of at that moment of going forward towards her partner. That's good enough for me. This is what I quoted in the past. And you said words to the effect that she didn't know what she was talking about. That might have been before you new who Anne Lewis was.
John Wood says at the end of the third step of the Feather we come into a nuetral position and balanced. There is nothing about the body being in an unbalanced position.That's also good enough for me.
I have asked you before to point me in the direction either on tape or written where the body goes to an unbalanced position. As you get into this unbalanced position are you vertical, or are you leaning forward.
This gets even better and shows you are still learning.
As the knee bends, so you say. the thigh stays verticle over the knee. You must have unusual legs . The last time I looked my thigh was verticaly over my knee and shin straight down to my ankle.If I bend the knee the angle of my shin and thigh will alter. The thigh will bend to a predetermined position depending on the angle set by the knee. But you must have known that and just ignored human movement which you quote only when it suits you. Again everything you write has the body toppling forward doesn't it.

"Anonymous.As the leg extends back the supporting knees bends to the front because it is impossible for the knee to bend the other way."

The knee bends forwards, but depending on how the ankle is used it may end up not moving forwards in space. Early in the lowering it will move forwards a small amount, but this is a short phase of the action - soon it is moving backwards along with the entire rest of the body.

"The feeling according to Anne Lewis is a feeling of at that moment of going forward towards her partner."

You can have that as a feeling, but it can only be a physical reality very briefly, as the partner's body is also moving forward. If you are both moving "forward" then obviously you can't go anywhere - you have halted your progression to simply have a shoving match in place. Doing a tiny bit of this to find each other is a good idea - but it is a tiny phase of the action. Moving together across the floor is the big idea, and that requires that the backwards partner move (ready for this?) backwards.

"John Wood says at the end of the third step of the Feather we come into a nuetral position and balanced."

Ovsimplification to make some point of interest at a time. Were you aware that Mr. Wood has different timing and action in his feather depending on where it falls in the musical phrase? Think about that before you go around spouting oversimplified rules and attributing them to him...

"There is nothing about the body being in an unbalanced position.That's also good enough for me."

It wasn't mentioned because it wasn't the topic of the day - but it most certainly occurs.

"I have asked you before to point me in the direction either on tape or written where the body goes to an unbalanced position."

Learning center, forward walk, 2:extesion. The body is unbalanced, period. Why have you refused to look at this despite it being mentioned a half dozen times or so? (I am not endorsing the entire sequence of images, as both I and even adminsitrator think they are less than ideal, but that particular frame shows the necessary out of balance phase of the action in a way that is good enough for discussion)

"As you get into this unbalanced position are you vertical, or are you leaning forward."

Vertical, as I have already answered a half dozen times. Why do you repetate your questions?

"As the knee bends, so you say. the thigh stays verticle over the knee. You must have unusual legs . The last time I looked my thigh was verticaly over my knee and shin straight down to my ankle.If I bend the knee the angle of my shin and thigh will alter."

The angle of your shin will alter, but you have the choice of keeping your thigh vertical. To do so you must move your body forward as your knee bends, and you are apparenlty not yet willing to do that.

"The thigh will bend to a predetermined position depending on the angle set by the knee."

No, you have a choice of the angle at which your thigh is oriented.

"Again everything you write has the body toppling forward doesn't it."

Absolutely not. Perhaps when you realize that you can bend the knee without tiliting the thigh, you will begin to understand why the body can stay vertical as the knee bends.

Quickstep, try this:

Put a folded towel on the floor and kneel on it. Align your thigh, hip, and shoulder directly over your knees so that your body has perfect vertical alignement. Are you pitching forward? No need to be, so fix it if you are.

There you have it - knee quite bent, body not over the foot but instead of the knee, and perfectly aligned.

When you lower via the knee, you move towareds this position. Of course you dont ride it all the way into the floor, but instead blend it out into the rest of the step - you ride it down for a while, and then start to restraighten your knee.

Anonymous. Come on now. If you give us a model the try it yourself. If you carry this shield to the front so that your standing knee hip and shoulder are behind this shield the only way you can go forward is if the knees are in front of the shield.
If they are behind you are sitting, this is feet together as in the Waltz. If this is passing steps as in the Foxtrot, and some steps in the Waltz it will be knee. Try this, feet and nose touching the door. I think you will agree this is verticle. Now lower. If your knees don't you through this door you will be sitting. The further the knees bend, the further your nose will be going backwards. But I think at this point you are advocating that there is a leaning and falling forward away from the verticle . Isn't that right.

"Anonymous. Come on now. If you give us a model the try it yourself. If you carry this shield to the front so that your standing knee hip and shoulder are behind this shield the only way you can go forward is if the knees are in front of the shield."

No, and I do in fact practice this every time I dance. The way you want to move - sending your knees forward while holding your hips and upper body station ary over the foot is indeed sitting down. But the way I move is more along the lines of kneeling down - the knee goes forward of the toe, and the entire body from the knee up moves forward directly over the knee in vertical alignment with it. My weight moves as I bend my knee, which is a basic requirement of smooth dancing which you appear not yet to have learned about.

"Try this, feet and nose touching the door. I think you will agree this is verticle. Now lower. If your knees don't you through this door you will be sitting."

I cannot lower properly for a forward action while toe up against a door that is attached to the wall. Lowering properly for a forard action requires moving the body, so as I have repeatedly explain I would have to take the door off of its hinges and carry it with me. If you can lower against a fixed object, then this is prove that you do not move your body while you lower, which is a seriously inhibiting flaw.

"The further the knees bend, the further your nose will be going backwards. But I think at this point you are advocating that there is a leaning and falling forward away from the verticle . Isn't that right."

No, abosolutely no leaning. Did you try the kneeling on the floor, body aligned over the knees exercise yet? If so, you might be starting to get an idea of how this works.