Don,

I certainly agree with you for people who can find the beat or are experienced enough to choreograph a piece.

I wasn't quite clear from Hytran just how experienced he is so I directed my comments towards a bare beginner that is worried about how to find the beat and/or rhythm. I think internalizing the beat first makes learning to count it later easier.

This is not a "I know the way" comment just an observation from experience:

A friend was having trouble getting a group of young children (10 & under)in a community centre class to learn the jive step. He'd just about given up but asked my wife and I to see if we could help.

The class was an hour and a half (far too long for the age group IMO). For the first hour we did no dancing whatsoever. We spent the first hour playing rhythm games: clapping, rhymes, sight reading Kodaly rhythm cards, etc. We had lots of variations, e.g. in a speed drill the kids had to clap the previous card rather than the one showing. Underlying it all everything we did emphasized a SSQQ rhythm.

After an hour we had them up walking to some slow swing tunes, added a "Run-Run", then checked the first "Run" backwards in game variations.

Our friend had also said the kids wouldn't dance together. The mistake he made was he asked the kids if they would dance together first.

"Oh! Oh! I'm not gonna dance with a girl," was the type of response he got.

Knowing that with this group we included activities like one person pulling another to the music by their shirt sleeve. Everything was a game. We added layers to the level of contact and kept the pace of change fast enough that the kids were in closed contact before they knew what had happened to them.

We never asked and we never told them to do it. Everything was an ever changing game of challenging complexity (kids like that). Things happened so fast embarassment would have come from refusing to dance with a partner.

However, the main thing was that all activities emphasized internalizing the SSQQ rhythm and the kids had no problem learning to back step and they learned syllabus steps very quickly after that.

Sometimes we talk too much (like this post ).

I don't think there's anything wrong with borrowing from another discipline if it ultimately helps you achieve a goal.

Off soap-box.

OB

I'm very depressed after reading this. I can only count the beats within a bar, but not bars within a phrase. Is there any resources to learn this? Do I need to study music theory to dance?

What is dancing out of rhythm?

Hi Anon
Don't despair!! If you can reliably count beats within a bar, you're a long way down the road.
I really think it's all a matter of listening to music, but in an active way (i.e. put aside the pure pleasure for a moment). Find an Ella Fitzgerald or Frank Sinatra standard to fox-trot rhythm and count the bars - you'll soon find that the music tends to be organised in 4 or 8 bar sequences. I don't know what sort of music you prefer, but try Frank Sinatra's "All or nothing at all" or "change partners" which is on one of the "ultimate Ballroom" albums. But it's not an easy skill to acquire. Those who are good at it can instinctively 'feel' the ending of an 8-bar sequence from the music itself, without having to count the bars. Even this will come eventually if you work at it.
Dancing out of rhythm?? Imagine a slow waltz where the first strong step (say of a natural turn) is taken on beat 2 instead of beat 1. That's what i would call dancing out of rhythm.
A dancing colleague here has had problems with this for many years, and did badly in novice comps because of it. In the last few months he has 'cracked' it and is suddenly winning - so don't despair. Start working on it

Anon,

No need to study music theory.

Phil has given you some good advice. I especially like his choice of music for you as it tends to have a "blues" base.

The Blues has a natural "call and response" feel to it. In a sense the melody poses a question followed by a response.

Do you know the "Doh, a deer...song"?

In music theory Doh is the tonic or strongest note that establishes which key you are in.

In popular music phrases often begin on Doh or some introductory note that leads strongly to it. This is the beginning of the phrase. Almost always the phrase ends on Doh.

Regardless, if you listen to the music phrasing gives you a feeling starting at rest. Then the music starts to rise away from rest, reaches a high point of tension (the question) then begins to fall back until it reaches what feels like a resting point at doh again. Then a new question begins.

Each one of these question and answers is a phrase.

There is a natural feel of starting and stopping.

If you listen to the lyrics in many popular songs you'll begin to realize there are natural stopping/resting points in the music. These are the ends of phrases.

After you can do that then you can learn to count the beats/bars in each phrase.

OB

Anonymous. I think everybody can count the for bar introduction. Then the song begins. If you look for it, there will be eight bars of music then into another phrase. There are usually 64 bars all up without counting the 4 bar introduction. That makes six blocks of eight. Try not to let your routine, for instance, going into a Natural movement be out of phrase but in time. As pointed out before. In the Waltz do a Spin Turn starting on the mans right foot. 456 of a Reverse Turn. A Reverse Turn into a Whisk and a Progressive Chasse. Now going into a Natural movement you are on time but out of rhythm because on the Progressive Chasse your count would have been 7. 2 and 3 which will put you on 8 2 and 3 on your Natural, this is the sort of thing to be aware of and to avoid. It's worse than a crossword puzzle,isn't it?.

Hi,

This is still quite confusing to me. I wonder is there any good book written on this subject.

TJ. If there are books on this subject I've never seen one. Don't be alarmed though, you can dance the Waltz for instance and count 123. 123. instead of 123 223. But when putting a routine together you must be aware of the phrasing, like the chapters of a book
Strangly enough in the most difficult of all the dances in both Modern and Latin. The Samba is the easiest to feel the eight bar phrasing, what makes it difficult is the changing rhythm within those eight bars. If you didn't understand the music and you tried to put a few steps together you would be extremely lucky if you got it right. If it, helps in the Foxtrot I played a tune on my CD player. I set up in front of it, a tape recorder. I then counted to my self 1234. 2234 3234. and so on to eight. Then on the first beat of the new chapter I whacked two spoons together recording onto the tape. This can be done on any dance . Rumba is especially a good one to try. If anybody has trouble going to sleep, try counting your steps in beats and bars and phrasing. I rarely get to the end of my Samba routine.