Anonymous or the mixed up kid. Do you have a technique book you can look into.Instead of a whole heap of writting I will quote from my technique book on a couple of points on which you have very little information. Outside Spin Waltz Alex Moore pages 135 to 138.Steps 1 and 2 outside partner CBM. Lady on one CBM on three CBMP. You will notice there is a difference between the man and the lady.
Lock Step. Steps one and five will be placed in CBMP. The Lock Step starts and finishes diagnal to the wall ( it goes without saying that if the Lock Step is taken to the center there is a different alignment ). Read and understand .If the Lock is followed by a turn the fifth step becomers CBM outside partner. Pages 66 to 68.
You tell me if you can find any technique book which says different. Book and page please. If you can't put up then shut up.
So you have said It is not caused by any property of the figure that comes next. You had better think again and look at your book. Again please . Names and numbers.
Here's one you are liable to get wrong. Spin Turn then a Progressive Chasse to the Center. What is the alignment after the Spin Turn and why.

"Anonymous or the mixed up kid. Do you have a technique book you can look into.Instead of a whole heap of writting I will quote from my technique book on a couple of points on which you have very little information. Outside Spin Waltz Alex Moore pages 135 to 138.Steps 1 and 2 outside partner CBM."

If you check a more modern reference such as the Ballroom Technique, you will find that both steps 1 and 2 are in CBMP in addition to having CBM. This should be obvious given that they are outside partner. It's also plainly seen if you look at the diagram of the foot positions on page 137 of your book - see how the moving foot falls on a line drawn through the standing one? That is CBMP - no room for any argument.

"Lock Step. Steps one and five will be placed in CBMP. The Lock Step starts and finishes diagnal to the wall ( it goes without saying that if the Lock Step is taken to the center there is a different alignment ). Read and understand .If the Lock is followed by a turn the fifth step becomers CBM outside partner. Pages 66 to 68."

Regardless of what follos the lock step, the fifth step is always outside partner in CBMP. Again, you might be better served by Alex's other book, the Ballroom Technique which puts this all into a clearer chart format.

"You tell me if you can find any technique book which says different. Book and page please. If you can't put up then shut up."

The official one. Order if from the ISTD and see for yourself. Or simply learn to understand the book in your hands, and you will realize that this is what is requesting even though the exact words are not there in your edition.

So you have said It is not caused by any property of the figure that comes next. You had better think again and look at your book. Again please . Names and numbers.

ISTD... buy it and weep.

"Here's one you are liable to get wrong. Spin Turn then a Progressive Chasse to the Center. What is the alignment after the Spin Turn and why."

Anywhere you want it to be... that the property of a spin turn.

The Lock Step Quickstep International Style. We travel going sideways on a straight line. The first step must be across the body CBMP. The second step is open no CBM also the third and fouth. The fifth step which becomes the first step of maybe another Lock will have CBMP. If the step after the Lock is to be a Tipple Chasse it cannot be in CBMP, it must be CBM otherwise you will not turn. You will keep going on a straight line. In short the shoulder will go to the leg with turn CBM, and not shoulders fixed and the leg across the body CBMP which is what is required if we are to keep going on our original line. Try it.

You know what, you don't even need to buy another book to see a literal correction of your misunderstanding. You said that you could not do CBM while stepping into CBMP while outside partner. Well, open your book to the early quickstep section and read up on step 5 of the progressive chasse. I quote:

"5. RF forward, outside partner, diga to wall.

Contrary Body Movement. DCBM on 1 and 5. The 5th step is placed in CBMP.

There you go - you are wrong, and the evidence is in your hands.

"The Lock Step Quickstep International Style. We travel going sideways on a straight line. The first step must be across the body CBMP. The second step is open no CBM also the third and fouth. The fifth step which becomes the first step of maybe another Lock will have CBMP."

Yes, more or less.

"If the step after the Lock is to be a Tipple Chasse it cannot be in CBMP, it must be CBM otherwise you will not turn."

No, it MUST be in CBMP. Just as in all cases where a figure with left side lead ends with an additional "starter" step of the right foot in CBMP, the followin g figure's first step is modified by that CBMP requirement and becomes outside partner.

Where you are getting confused is in the note that if it is a turning figure, it must have CBM. That's true - CBM is needed to commence the turn. But the CBM is on top of the CBMP placement - the only way you could avoid stepping into CBMP would be to use rotation in the opposite direction (anti-CBM) to neutralize out the left side lead you are carrying from the end of the lock.

"You will keep going on a straight line. In short the shoulder will go to the leg with turn CBM, and not shoulders fixed and the leg across the body CBMP which is what is required if we are to keep going on our original line. Try it."

Both happen... you go into CBMP because you were already headed that way, but you also CBM because you are initation turn.

Incidentally, if you look at the step charts in Ballroom Dancing, you will see that natural turns do keep going in a straight line even as the body rotates for CBM. Commencing turn does not mean that the direction of movement changes, it merely means that you are preparing to change it. In a natural turn, the direction will not change until you are over step 2 - in a Quarter Turn or tipple chasse, it will start to change as you arrive over step 1, but the direction in which step 1 was placed is the same direction in which you were moving at the end of the previous figure.

Anonymous. Too much writting and some of the points get lost. First the last step of the Progressive Chasse the fifth step becomes the first step of the Lock which as I said is in CBMP. So where is the argument On a turning figure there is swing and sway On CBMP there is no sway. It isn't possible if the correct position for CBMP is used. Imagine you are facing diag to wall to apply CBMP and turn at the end of one. Don't forget the shoulder is already in position and the step is across the body. If you step and bring the shoulder around that is CBM. not CBMP
To finish CBMP in a Reverse Weave Waltz fourth step is a straight step with no sway and is straight down the floor. partner outside .

To alleviate your confusion, please open your copy of "Ballroom Dancing" to the explanation of CBMP, probably located in the vicinity of page 17, and then report back on the following two questions:

1) Can a CBMP step also utilize CBM?

2) Does an outside step by definition require CBMP?

Now please open your book to the description of a feather step and answer the following two questions:

1) Is step three outside partner in CBMP?

2) Does it have sway?

Now, tell us in your own words:

1) Is CBMP compatible with CBM?

2) Is CBMP compatible with Sway?

Anonymous. Page 17. You didn't keep reading. And how can CBMP and CBM be used at the same time. Either it is or it isn't. What has CBMP and the sway on the third step of the Feather have to do with YOUR original statement that on a Lock Step in the Quick Step the ladies right hip goes back without the right shoulder going back with it. Now either you miss wrote that or failed to make it clear what you meant. If the fist guy who had a partner 7" shorter to himself followed your instructions they would have no body contact at all. That is what CBMP is all about. Keeping square to each other when the step is taken outside partner.
Getting back to sway. There is no sway on a Lock Step at all.
Lets tackle your last few questions in one. How could we swing and sway on step two and then stand up straight on three on a Feather Step. Now come on try it. If you don't have sway on three then it can't happen on two.
Ballroom Dancing is an Art and not a Science. Alex Moore did indicate that we have to use the old noodle on occasions.
Might point out at this time. If a person started late in life dancing. To turn the body half a turn would be almost impossible. Out of one to ten maybe six. A young person if they needed to, would be able go the full distance. So if you are one of the older ones CBMP will never be used correctly, especialy on that third step on the Feather and the first step of the Lock either forward or backwards.
Just to finish. If the partner is outside we have CBMP which does not turn. If the partner is inside or outside and the step is turning it will be in CBM. To illustrate this an Ouside Spin is a good example. Steps one and two for the man are outside partner with CBM only. So there goes the CBMP. Why is it CBM. Because it is turning and you don't turn on CBMP. The lady steps though are different she has CBM on one and CBMP on three. To get a clearer picture of this you have to read the special note. There is no sway throughout either for the man or the lady. So does that answere your questions, maybe not in the right order but it does say when where why and how.

"Anonymous. Page 17. You didn't keep reading. And how can CBMP and CBM be used at the same time. Either it is or it isn't."

Apparently you didn't read that page. It says about CBMP, "but in some cases Contrary Body Movement is used at the same time"

In the face of this, will you still insist on denying that they can be used together? Or are you simply asking for advice on how to use them together? (The answer is rather simple - CBM in the presence of CBMP is much more a sense of rotation - comparatively little actual rotation is needed given the starting position, but the feel of rotation is still important)

"What has CBMP and the sway on the third step of the Feather have to do with YOUR original statement that on a Lock Step in the Quick Step the ladies right hip goes back without the right shoulder going back with it."

Not all that much, it was mentioned to specifically demonstrate the falshood of your claim that CBMP and sway cannot coexist. Will you still deny that they can?

"If the fist guy who had a partner 7" shorter to himself followed your instructions they would have no body contact at all."

Body contact is not a necessity. But a good CBMP stretch will put you much closer into contact than you would be without it. However the contact will not, and should not be at the hip in such a case (it should only be there in some lines).

"That is what CBMP is all about. Keeping square to each other when the step is taken outside partner."

Yes, by moving on a diagonal with an extreme stretch between the left shoulder and the right hip. This means that the right shoulder will necessarily be somewhat forward of the right hip when viewed in a situation of no sway. If sway is present, it is still true but the visual perspective is more complicated.

"Getting back to sway. There is no sway on a Lock Step at all."

Yes, if you look back up the thread you will see that was already pointed out.

"Lets tackle your last few questions in one. How could we swing and sway on step two and then stand up straight on three on a Feather Step. Now come on try it. If you don't have sway on three then it can't happen on two."

Obviously - so this CBMP step must have sway, which you had been claiming was not compatible with CBMP. Now obviously not all CBMP steps have sway, but some due, so your idea of their incompatability is patently false.

"So if you are one of the older ones CBMP will never be used correctly, especialy on that third step on the Feather and the first step of the Lock either forward or backwards."

Actually, if you really understand CBMP you would realize that it is not a turn of the body, but a diagonal motion. To take a small step in CBMP does not require much stretch - it is only when dancers (as humans tend to) scale up the movement that stretch is required. Alternately, one can tone down the movement and take the CBMP step about a foot length long, and little is required other than moving on a gentle diagonal. However, the original poster was clearly not dancing that way, or they would not have had the problem they encountered. Toning it all down is an option, but I suspect not the one they want.

"Just to finish. If the partner is outside we have CBMP which does not turn. If the partner is inside or outside and the step is turning it will be in CBM."

And if the partner is outside, and the step turns, then we have CBMP but we *also do CBM*.

"To illustrate this an Ouside Spin is a good example. Steps one and two for the man are outside partner with CBM only. "

No, they are with CBM and ALSO INTO CBMP. See the description in the ISTD book. See "Ballroom Dancing" page 17 "Even the novice should remember that every step taken outside partner, or with the partner oustide, must be placed across the body in CBMP". If you'd done your homework, you would haver reported that in your post, instead of continuing in your error.

"So there goes the CBMP. Why is it CBM. Because it is turning and you don't turn on CBMP."

It is both outside partner and turning, so it has CBMP _and_ CBM... get it?

"So does that answere your questions, maybe not in the right order but it does say when where why and how."

No, you have not read and summarized the assigned passage of the book your like to quote. Please do so.

Anonymous. I 'm in a bit of a hurry and haven't studied the posting. But if I know what CBMP is and I stand stationary as in step one of a turn with CBMP How can I swing my shoulder when it is already there. try it.
The way I am being taught with CBM, the shoulder comes in late, it will always be travelling faster than the foot . So the shoulder is travelling to the foot position which is turning at the end of one. I'm Off.