"You the first Anonymous definitely have not seen any recent IDSF competitions. The ladies right arm is more straight than bent by a long way."

On the contrary, having seen that mistake on a lot of the IDSF kids is precisly why I am warning against it.

"One of the top couples has a very straight arm."

Lots of the "top couples" are still making severe mistakes. Do you realize how young and inexperienced in judgement these kids are? They can do some impressive things physically, but they are only at the very beginning of their careers as scholars of dance - only just beginning to think about the issues as adults.

"Which brings the left hand behind the man's bicept"

Another mistake.

"This by the way is all six on the floor."

If all your friends jumped off a cliff...

"In the set up the lady comes to the man as if she is going to pass him on his right side. So where does that put her feet in relation to the man. Contact point right side to right side."

Yes, but it should be created by stretch in the bodies, not displacement of the feet or arms. This is a typical juvenile mistake - bigness is in stretching the left side of your body past your partner, not in putting your feet or hands out away from your own body (that merely makes you look stiff and sparse - a dancing scarecrow).

"All six are the same in six different competitions."

I strongly suggest you watch more mature dancers, such as the pros. The IDSF is its own self-reliant game. When they turn pro, they mature. When they retire and turn their full time attention to teaching, they mature even more. Do you want to be inspired by a 20 year old kid, or by those who are training him?

"I came across a very early edition of Alex Moore's book only last week dated 1936. In that edition he used photos of he and his partner. One was a forward walk. The length of stride was incredibly small. But you've guessed it they were on the heel of the front foot and the toe of the back foot and yes the weight is in the middle."

Sure, in a posed picture. Which is not dancing.

"He could hardly do it any other way when inside page 10 that is how it is described."

Yes, that's a useful stage to experiment if you want to try the footwork he teaches, which is to say releasing the toe while the heel is bearing full body weight. However, as you scale this up to modern movement, especially if you do it while keeping that foot timing, the split weight dissappears.

"You know how in a debate you must give a reference to a book, lecture or whatever to conradict what I have brought forward."

You are quoting without understanding. Say something about the physics of the movement and you might be creadible.

1) Why do you believe that the body is constantly supported?

2) Do you realize that using pressure into a foot that is ahead of your body will retard your movement? Why would you want to waste energy like that?

"I asked a teacher . On my Feather Step am I bending my knees too much, she said. Quickstep I doubt whether you will ever bend your knees too much."

The question is not, are you bending your knees too much, but do the rest of your body actions support the magnitude and timing of your knee bend? Given your various uninformed opinions on those relationships, my guess would be that they don't, but then I haven't seen you dance.

"I think there lies one of your problems. The only way you can get your body ahead of your legs is if you are unbending.

Nope. You most certainly bend your knees. But you do it while projecting your body over your knee, not by holding it back over your foot. Until you figure out that this is possible, you will of course not believe what I am saying. But spend a few months learning to do it, developing the foot stretch to support it, and I guarantee a whole new world of possibility will open in your dancing.

"That isn't flight that's fall. Which acounts for your belief, as stated, that we should get to the point of imbalance and have to take our next step.."

It is both flight and fall. But it is not the stumbling that you imagine when you see the word fall. Instead, it is a kind of dancing you are quite used to seeing, just without understanding how it is created. Which means that you have no hope of adopting it for yourself.

sorry that should be developing the foot STRENGTH to support it (not foot stretch)

My understanding is: we should finish off our step one within the first beat of the waltz. If we do this, by the end of beat one, we are on our standing foot. And, there would be no argument of split weight.

split weight or not has nothing to do with the total amount of time a step takes, instead it has to do with the action of moving from one foot to another - hesistantly, with a time of overlap of pressure in both feet, or freely, with no time of overlap of the foot pressure

"You are still operating under the severly mistaken assumption that the sum of the support from both legs equals 100% of the body weight. It doesn't always - at some points in a step it is much more, and at some points it is much, much less - even briefly zero for a fully flighted action."

'Equal' No, you mistakenly assume that I assume. In case of the walk, the sum of the 'point of pressures' is 100% of the body weight or MORE but it must never be less. More, because a lot of that pressure is also being used to move the 'centre of weight' forward, besides the support against gravity. Hence we have controlled flight so that we can be musical. Maximum possible flight does not lead to superior dancing. You need to be in control of your flight every step of the way. You're suggesting an inferior technique.

"It is imperitive in the swing dances not to attempt to use the receiving leg to control the weight transfer. Doing so can only create the kind of body stuck between overdivided legs that causes poor body and hold alignment."

How you arrive at the conclusion that using the receiving leg to control weight tranfer leads to being 'stuck' and poor align is beyond me. You're hopeless.

"Instead, the timing of weight trasfer has to be controlled only by the aim of the initiating action. Particularly when moving forward, don't launch yourself and then try to control your arrival - any attempt to do so will spoil your body alignment. Instead, launch yourself so that you arrival, UNCONTROLLED, will come out exactly where, when, and how you wanted it to be."

One never 'launches' oneself. One actively uses the standing leg to send and receiveing leg to receive weight in a controlled manner. It is a superior way of transfering weight to use both the standing leg and the sending leg to control the transfer. You will never achieve the control over the flight and the kind of musical expression possible with using both legs by using only the standing leg.

All this reflects is that you are an average to hopeless dancer and you have the arrogance to match like most lousy dancers.

Rha

"'Equal' No, you mistakenly assume that I assume. In case of the walk, the sum of the 'point of pressures' is 100% of the body weight or MORE but it must never be less."

You never lower, you only go up higher and higher until your head hits the ceiling? Simply physics dictates that the support will often be less than the body weight - for the most obvious, because you would never be able to descend otherwise. Carefull examination of free movement from foot to foot will show that there's a big dip in support during the transfer there, too.

"More, because a lot of that pressure is also being used to move the 'centre of weight' forward, besides the support against gravity."

Not during the entire action. There are parts that a driven, and parts that are undriven - the body simply drifting on its established course. During some of those parts, the support is far less than gravity - perhaps briefly there is no support at all.

"Hence we have controlled flight so that we can be musical."

You control flight by controling the aim of departure (path and timing), not by misaiming and then slamming on the brakes to fix things. That is the fundamental error you still haven't discovered. Your departing leg controls the aim - your receiving leg as long as it is ahead of you is nothing more than the brakes, which you should try to avoid having to use.

"You need to be in control of your flight every step of the way. You're suggesting an inferior technique."

You need to control proactively by aiming your movement more carefully. It is misaiming and riding the brakes to fix your mistake which is inferrior dancing - not just because it is inefficient, but because it requires a misaligned body position (body too far behind the foot) to work.

Anonymous. Its time you stopped referring to the best amateurs in the world as kids.I would say most are in or aproaching there 30's. One of these kids I have on tape did turn professional and went straight to the professional finals and is now winning all professional events. When the kid who is winning all the amatuer events turns professional and goes straight to finals which he will. What will you say then.
"Do you want to be inspired by a twenty year old kid or those who are training him.
Thats a stupid thing to write, even if there was a 20 year old on the floor , which there isn't.
If you were to turn yourself around and do the ladies steps. Have you thought what is happening to the lady when you thrust yourself forward to the point of imbalance. Now come on , be sensible. I hope you are not one of those whos front foot has no contact with the floor. If you are, you are out of control untill that front foot touches the floor. If somebody said freeze you wouldn't be able to because you would literally be standing at that time on one leg.
I get lost with all these Anonymous's. Your not the one who believes, that on a back lock in the Quickstep, the right hip goes back and the shoulder doesn't, but stays forward. Are you. Even in those good old days it was never taught like that.

"Anonymous. Its time you stopped referring to the best amateurs in the world as kids.I would say most are in or aproaching there 30's."

Not in a decade or two they haven't been. They are in their early 20's mostly. And the IDSF comeptitors aren't amateurs by any stretch of hte word, either. What they are is juvenile, not yet developed professionals.

"One of these kids I have on tape did turn professional and went straight to the professional finals and is now winning all professional events."

Yes, they grew up. And notice that they are dancing with more maturity than some of the pros. It's not just about calendar age, it is about sopphistication to. And that is a function of who they study with. The dancers you are presumably talking about are an Italian couple with the dynamics of that country, but one who has now adopted enough of the classic english technical refinements to best the English at their own game (in other words, they listen to the retired English coaches with more care than the English students do)

"When the kid who is winning all the amatuer events turns professional and goes straight to finals which he will. What will you say then."

They just turned pro as well - another example of the same phenomenon, though it will probably be a little while before their beat their countrymen currrently holding the top.

"Do you want to be inspired by a twenty year old kid or those who are training him.
Thats a stupid thing to write, even if there was a 20 year old on the floor , which there isn't."

There are plenty, and they dance the way you are describing. Wheras the winning couples - those moving into the pro ranks - are making visible refinements beyond the errors you described as virtues.

"If you were to turn yourself around and do the ladies steps. Have you thought what is happening to the lady when you thrust yourself forward to the point of imbalance."

Not only thought about it, insisted on the same action when the lady is moving forwards. I don't want her legs, thank you, I want her body.

"Now come on , be sensible. I hope you are not one of those whos front foot has no contact with the floor. If you are, you are out of control untill that front foot touches the floor."

My foot is near or on the floor, unweighted. But that has no bearing on control. Control is achieved not by using a second leg as some sort of cane to recover from mistakes, it is achieved by not moving in wrong directions to start with (or correcting such errors so early that you can do it by slightly moving your weight within the standing foot - which is invisible to an outsider)

"If somebody said freeze you wouldn't be able to because you would literally be standing at that time on one leg."

Of course. That is called body flight, and if you don't have it, you had better be dancing the tango and demonstrating an idea in a static, non-dancing situation.

"I get lost with all these Anonymous's. Your not the one who believes, that on a back lock in the Quickstep, the right hip goes back and the shoulder doesn't, but stays forward. Are you. Even in those good old days it was never taught like that."

Another basic element of technique sadly neglected by so many... CBMP requires a stretch in the body to achieve free drifting movement, and this is part of the characteristic of that step. You can avoid this necessity only by keeping your step small or loosing position on your partner. Neither is very nice to look at in the midst of an otherwise fully executed performance, though there could still be romance in seeing an older couple go without this on a social floor.

Anonymous. I should have picked up on something you wrote earlier. Poise. The lady stretches to her side not the man. The way you wrote it would seem that the man stretches to the side.
You may not be aware that the couple who turned professional made a grand final on there first outing. There was no time lapse here, just one competition to the next. Just from memory I believe they were placed fourth. Latin was simular with Joanne Wilkinson and partner who turned professional just before Xmas and three weeks later were placed third in the Professional Latin at the UK Championships in Bournmouth. Having said that Gozzoli and Betti's rise to the top was exceptional as was Cocchi and Wilkinson's. Not bad for couples aged 20's going on 30's . I think it was in 1990 that I first saw Joanne dance. She was already well esablished than.
When you used the word fall,that is a mistake isn't it. You did mean lower didn't you.
Next time there is an Althletics meeting on TV. It might be a good idea to watch the runners. See how the body is being carried by the legs and how the body apears to be dead centre throughout. Compare that to a soccer player who because he has a ball at his feet uses a different running technique. Which of the two would be the nearest to a dancer in full flight.

"Anonymous. I should have picked up on something you wrote earlier. Poise. The lady stretches to her side not the man. The way you wrote it would seem that the man stretches to the side."

Both stretch, otherwise the hold is unbalanced. However, while the man stretchs leftwards and forwards, the lady has to stretch left and forward and back all at the same time.

"You may not be aware that the couple who turned professional made a grand final on there first outing. There was no time lapse here, just one competition to the next."

Yes, they had grown up enough - outgrown the IDSF field - to be able to do that. Likely as have their countrymen who just switched circuits. Note that neither lady has her right arm straight as someone had claimed, excepting momentary lapses while pivoting (and actually, the more junior couple is ahead in this area). Its true both have their left hands a bit back, but given the obvious lack of ease to the hold this is causing on that side they will probably outgrow that sooner or later - slip the wrist slightly more inside, wrist down, palm up, elbow up, arm more in contact with the man's and that side will be cleaned up.

"Having said that Gozzoli and Betti's rise to the top was exceptional"

But it wasn't. They developed skills which others still lack. They have many areas where they clearly need further development - but they must be good and determined students, for they are making fewer objectionable mistakes than the others.

"When you used the word fall,that is a mistake isn't it. You did mean lower didn't you."

In what context? Most lowering is barely slowed falling - at some points, not slowed at all, though obviuosly towards the bottom of the dive there is more pressure against the floor to level at the path of movement.

"Next time there is an Althletics meeting on TV. It might be a good idea to watch the runners. See how the body is being carried by the legs and how the body apears to be dead centre throughout."

Funny, I don't see their partners running backwards in front of them. Do you? Mentally turn one of them around, stick them in front of another, make their legs go backwards and tell me if that looks comfortable to you. Sure doesn't to me! Dancing shares much with walking and running, but dancing with a partner must be adapted to the presence of the partner - and that means biasing the body closer to the front leg.

"Compare that to a soccer player who because he has a ball at his feet uses a different running technique. Which of the two would be the nearest to a dancer in full flight."

Well, the soccer player at least has a concern beyond his own body. But perhaps not the same concern as a partner dancer... that's worth some thought or comparison of video stills.