And then there was the cousin who moved to america and made a name in C&W: Billy Bob Irvine

Luv2Dance. I've never known Billy Irvine under any other name, and his wife and partner always referred to as Bobbie. There is a picture of them in the 1973 edition of Alex Moore's Ballroom Dancing. The Tango Hold and underneath is printed Billy and Bobbie Irvine.. Also at the time I met them just before they left for S. Africa which I believe was 1956. I hope I didn't call them by the wrong names.

Hi Luv2dance
I think when people say "twist the spine" they're really talking about rotating the upper body (about a vertical axis - the spine when standing up straight)I think the actual vertebrae of the spine can twist a little too - that's one of the things the discs in the spine allow.
I think it's clear that the spine must twist and curve (not at the same time necessarily) to allow CBM movements and also sway. When a man does a throwaway oversway, the spine must curve and twist at the same time. If this is not correct, please let me know!!
Imagine someone who has all their vertebrae from waist to neck fused together - i don't think they'd be very good dancers.
I've heard of Bill and Bobby Irvine of course, but i prefer to model my dancing on Andrew Sinkinson.

Hi Phil,

I'm with Anon 3 and also Quickstep (who brought this up many times before I think) on this one, that there's no 'twisting' of the spine in the CBM action.

The blocks of weight from hips to shoulders operating as one during the CBM action. The feet and head are another matter during this action and they do differ in their amount of rotation relative to the hips/ shoulder block. It's easy to think that ones twisting the shoulders ahead of the hips but the CBM rotation is really taking place entirely in the ankle and hip joint.

There are actions where one does rotate the shoulder more/less than the hips. Like in the case of the throwaway picture line where the shoulder can rotate more than the hip to create an bigger outward expansion of the tops. On the other hand, the 1st step through, on the inside, of the promenade can be assisted with the hips turning more than the shoulders.

However for me, CBM does not involve 'twisting' (hips to shoulders).

Rha

Hi Rha
I've tried doing CBM this way (i.e. keeping my shoulders over my hips all the time) but my movement is very restricted(and i have excellent flexibility). It's easy to tell if you're twisting the spine - just put your hand against the spine as you perform the movement(especially just under the shoulder blades). I definitely rotate my shoulders relative to hips. I will ask my coach about this one. Always willing to learn!!

"I'm with Anon 3 and also Quickstep (who brought this up many times before I think) on this one, that there's no 'twisting' of the spine in the CBM action.

The blocks of weight from hips to shoulders operating as one during the CBM action."

" The feet and head are another matter during this action and they do differ in their amount of rotation relative to the hips/ shoulder block."

They do indeed, but they are not the only place differences occur.

The hips and shoulder do not move in unison either.

"It's easy to think that ones twisting the shoulders ahead of the hips but the CBM rotation is really taking place entirely in the ankle and hip joint."

In reverse turns for example, the CBM action will take place in the ankle and hip, yes - but the top needs to be isolated from this so that the rotation of the shoulders lags that of the hips. Otherwise the offset in the hold gets turned to the other side, twisting the partnership.

Twist your own body, NOT your relationship to your partner.

"There are actions where one does rotate the shoulder more/less than the hips. Like in the case of the throwaway picture line where the shoulder can rotate more than the hip to create an bigger outward expansion of the tops. On the other hand, the 1st step through, on the inside, of the promenade can be assisted with the hips turning more than the shoulders."

Yes, those are other examples. Note by the way that the hip rotation on the step through in promenade is inwards, NOT outwards. Many steps even call for CBM them, even for a partner who will not be turning.

"However for me, CBM does not involve 'twisting' (hips to shoulders)."

When you have a lesson with a coach who teaches this essential skill, it will start to make sense why it is necessary.

Phil,

If something works for you then go with it. I honestly cannot feel a 'twisting' in my CBM. I'd be interested to know the 'feeling' when you produce your CBM. Do you have a feeling of 'Body Swing", that is the feeling of swinging one side of the body faster than the other to create the CBM.

Rha

Basically to sum up what Anonymous is saying to me in one sentence, is that he twists and I don't and if I want to learn to twist like him then I should go to some coach who will show we how to twist my CBM.

Anonymous, can you post the email address of this coach that you learnt this from on this site so that I can learn this concept.

Rha

Rha
I am curious, why do you not twist your (presumably) torso during CBM?

Because some would contend that the 'twisting' is necessary to create torque (which is also essential for swing) especially when entering a rotation--hence the general guideline that CBM is performed on a progressive movement rather than a rotating movement.

Hi El Capitan,

Agreed, I do need to create torque in CBM and I certainly can feel the torque however I feel the joints that the actually turning are my ankles and hip joints (1st the supporting leg joints and then the 'new' supporting leg joints, by the way). All this while both sides of the body are progressing forward. The torque gets one side doing 'faster' than the other.

I don't feel that shoulders are rotating more than my hips or less for that matter while I creating CBM. That's really the part that I'm questioning.

Rha