The purpose of the hold is not to provide pressure as an early warning, but to provide a comfortable, secure hold with a specific geometry. Simply putting your thumbs that way without getting this geometry of hold would be a politicial move, not a practical one.

we used to dance without thumbs-up hold. During dances my partner often twisted his and my hand, and I often ended up barely hanging onto his big thumb, which made me feel so insecure. I can tell you that that problem is gone since we switched to thumbs-up hold. With this hold, I can successfully resist if my partner tries to twist our wrists. That only is a good reason for us to stick to thumbs-up hold.

Anonymous. When you say you must, when moving backwards, take your knee with you.
You've still lost me here. I am looking at picture No.2 From the Learning Centre. If you mean, when you write, take the knee of the front leg with you Don't leave it in your partners space.. I can't. If you mean the back leg, its already gone.
The front leg I can't do anything but drive off it by straightening my knee and at the same time by lifting my toes from the floor..
The rear foot is all ready being driven.
Anybody reading this. I am not a politicion. You don't have to beleive what I say. What you can do is check for yourself.
The wheels carry the carriage, not the carriage carrying the wheels. Our shopping in a trolly stays where it is. If we look at a penduilum swinging from a fixed point. Our fixed point also moves with our wheels. That's why the shopping stays where it is in the trolly. Does that make sense or not.
Phil. you wrote that wrong. I said that all of the six finalists had the thumbs up. All the ladies also had a straightish right arm, some more than others. It is worth checking if you can. Exactly which part or parts of the body is in contact with the man. No longer is it a hip pushed onto the man. But as I said before anybody reading this . Look for yourself. If there is nothing to look at then find something.

"If you mean, when you write, take the knee of the front leg with you Don't leave it in your partners space.. I can't."

Sure you can. Leaving the knee behind would mean that most of the body movement was coming by increasing the horizontal distance between your standing knee and your body.

In contrast, taking the knee with you would mean that much of the horizontal travel was achieved by increasing the horizontal distance between the standing knee and the standing foot.

One quite natural way to do that is to release the toe - rotating the whole foot/shin combination from a forward angle against the travel to a backward action with the travel.

Another common method is to start to straighten the knee - when the knee becomes straight, then the knee will be about halfway between the foot and the body. While the knee is still bent, it can be closer to the foot than it is to the body - which is to say 'left behind' and not included in the movement.

A nice step will make use of both of these methods.


"If we look at a penduilum swinging from a fixed point. Our fixed point also moves with our wheels."

No. You swing on the vine from one tree - fixed point unmoving. And when you have used that up, you swing on a new vine from a new fixed point on the next tree. To the extent that the pendulum model is valid, each swing has only one pivot point - but you need a new point for each swing.

"I said that all of the six finalists had the thumbs up. All the ladies also had a straightish right arm, some more than others."

Bah, then they are doing it for show rather than for substance. Remember, these couples are still quite young and overwhelmed by too many demands - as them 10 years into retirment and they might have sorted all that information out into a self-consistent system of dancing.

"It is worth checking if you can. Exactly which part or parts of the body is in contact with the man. No longer is it a hip pushed onto the man."

It never was supposed to be...

Anonymous. Bit crude this. But if I had a side of beef on a hook hanging from a rail. I can start it swinging. If I then move the hook on the rail whilst the beef was swinging. Thats us.
Your analogy is exactly the same as above or the previouse posting. Why would you say No and than agree.
Body position. It is worth taking a good look at this. We were always taught that the contact was lower down, for want of a better word.To day there is more of the body in contact but higher leaving below free. The best thing is to look for oneself and see how much of the ladies bust is in contact with the man. A few years ago after the setup the lady used to turn the body slightly clockwise off the man after lining herself up with the man's shirt buttons. Bit hard to put this in writting. But, been there and done that.

"Anonymous. Bit crude this. But if I had a side of beef on a hook hanging from a rail. I can start it swinging. If I then move the hook on the rail whilst the beef was swinging. Thats us.
Your analogy is exactly the same as above or the previouse posting. Why would you say No and than agree."

I said no because we have described drastically different things. You want to move the pivot during the swing - which does not match the model of pendulum swing at all.

What I want to do is swing from one fixed unmoving pivot as far as a I can, and then switch to a new pivot at a markedly different location. One downswing-upswing has a single pivot. The next one has a new pivot located several meters across the ceiling.

You've described a continous progress of the pivot, I have described one that moves in large, discrete steps. The resulting path of the bodies will be quite different.

"Body position. It is worth taking a good look at this. We were always taught that the contact was lower down, for want of a better word."

It's much more likely that your old coach simply wasn't very knowledgeable.

"To day there is more of the body in contact but higher leaving below free."

If you were going to have contact, it has always needed to be up by the lower edge of the ribs. That is for ordinary figures - things change slightly in some lines.

Does anyone have a link to a picture of the "thumb up" hold? I'm very confused about what people are referring to.

Instead of the lady's thumb crossing the man's, the two thumbs parallel each other. But this is only the more visually obvious detail. When it's done for substance instead of just for look, it is part of a very specific angular relationship and connection between the hands - which becomes the foundation of a relationship between the arms and thus the bodies.

You really have to feel it, not just see it.

Anon 99. If you go to Dancesport uk. The first thing you will see is a run down of the International. Go to the winners of the Amatuer Ballroom and click on the winners Bizokas and Daniute for pictures. Click on any of a dozen or so to enlarge. If you want to see thumbs up you will most certainly see it there. It doesn't matter where you go it's the same give or take a few. Take a look at the Profession winners Gozzoli and Betti also. Come on again and tell us what you saw.

Anon 99. Whilst you are looking at those pictures can you tell me how strait the ladies right arm is compared to the mans left arm. It will give a fair indication of how far to her left the lady is. At the same time where is the ladies left hand, which is also related to the leftwards poise. The feet we can't see, but there has been an alteration there also all of which comes from the leftwards stance of the lady when you compare it to those olden, olden. old days. A good example is Gozzoli and Beti Professional Winners picture number 103903. Keep looking and learn.