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Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/17/2006  2:28:00 PM
Actually, you have labeled the closure as completing during the second half of beat two, wheras in the official technique it must not be more than halfway complete at by the end of step three.

Something does not match!
Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/17/2006  2:28:00 PM
start of step 3
Re: To understand
Posted by Anon 3
11/17/2006  5:09:00 PM
Anonymous. I've just been looking at John Wood's tape. With a slow count stopping on each major beat. Then moving to a count. Then with the music to a count. The feet are together on three having closed the feet on an ( and ) count. Does that answer you querie. If you think about it, if the closure of the feet is only half way you would have to lower immedaitely on arrival. Where would be the rise on three. Anyway it is very clear from the tapes. Two of them.
Balance is mentioned all through the tape. The steps are described this way. Most people do not Swing on step two. There is Turn at the end of step one. Then there is Swing on step two. Most people only step to the side on two making it very uninteresting. So the man said. I at this point in time cannot see where the above contadics anything in the book. That is looking through the book.
Also mentioned most of the un-enlightened ladies forget there is on a Spin Turn a drive on four and a swing onto five. It's all on the tape.
Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/17/2006  8:15:00 PM
"Anonymous. I've just been looking at John Wood's tape. With a slow count stopping on each major beat. Then moving to a count. Then with the music to a count. The feet are together on three having closed the feet on an ( and ) count. Does that answer you querie."

No, you are mixing up beats and steps.

The official technique says continue to rise on 2 and 3. That would be STEP two and STEP three, not beat TWO and BEAT three.

Step thre is officially defined to begin when the foot is halfway closed. So the formal requirement is that rise continue beyond the point at which the foot is halfway closed.

There is no statement that rise must still be ongoing as the foot continues closing.

Nor is there any statement giving the precise phase relationship to of steps to beats - nothing says what part of the step should fall on what part of the beat.

"Balance is mentioned all through the tape."

Well if that is what he said then, like most dancer teachers, he is factually wrong. You cannot be in balance unless your body weight is over or between standing feet. Any examination of a tape of a real dancer will show that this is quite often not the case - almost all steps depart from balance at some point in their execution.

What most dance teachers actually mean when the use the word "Balance" is not balance at all - instead, it is the property of never letting gravity take you somewhere you weren't happy to be going nor at a speed you weren't happy to be moving at. But that is not really balance.

"Also mentioned most of the un-enlightened ladies forget there is on a Spin Turn a drive on four and a swing onto five. It's all on the tape."

Actually there is officially no real side swing type of swing onto five, but of course everyone dances one today, because the actual spin turn has become must closer to steps 45 of a full natural than to anything resembling a natural pivot turn.

However, the absence of drive on step four is another class of problem. To lover from having your feet closed and drive onto a heel lead, you must send your standing knee forward of your standing foot and send your body forward in vertical alignment over your standing knee. Which is to say, you must PROJECT your body OFF BALANCE. It's much harder to do this from foot closure as lady on step 4 than it is to do it from a prep step lowering as the man would into step 1. The other problem is the partner. Many men jump off to the side on step four, instead of staying in front of their partner, shaping a path, and pacing her lowering and drive. Also, many men fail to lower on step 3, and instead lower into step 4 - which brings the lady crashing down, with no chance to round the vertical beginning of her step 3 lowering out into a nice horizontal drive by bending her standing knee and projecting her body weight. PRojecting her body weight OFF BALANCE, but with AIM that will cause a graceful horizontal movement, rather than a heavy crash onto the moving foot.
Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/17/2006  8:31:00 PM
"There is no statement that rise must still be ongoing as the foot continues closing."

Was supposed to be "there is no statement that the rise must still be ongoing when the foot has finished closing"
Re: To understand
Posted by Anon 3.
11/17/2006  9:17:00 PM
Anonymous. Crashing down on step four. This doesnt happen if the count is counted as it should be which is
3. ( and ) Three is up ( and ) is down
Is there any statement that says that the rise isn't on going.
Instead of putting your own interpetation into the steps. Lets take at face value.
Commence to rise. Then continue to rise on two. So what happens on three.
If you built a ramp. walking up it you would start to rise. About half way you could call that two. So where is three going to be.
The Waltz is 123 the steps 123 or first second and third. So where is the difference.
Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/17/2006  9:49:00 PM
"Anonymous. Crashing down on step four. This doesnt happen if the count is counted as it should be which is
3. ( and ) Three is up ( and ) is down"

It has nothing to do with the count, and everything to do with the dynamic of movement - especially the aim.

"Is there any statement that says that the rise isn't on going."

No, but there is no statement that says it is, either. You started out by quoting the book, but the book does not say that rise is ongoing as the feet have closed, it says that rise is ongoing beyond the point at which the feet are halfway closed. You consider that to still be part of beat two of the music, which means that rise may well not be occuring during beat three of the music.

"Instead of putting your own interpetation into the steps. Lets take at face value.
Commence to rise. Then continue to rise on two. So what happens on three."

STEP 3 or BEAT 3?

You still haven't figured out that they ARE NOT THE SAME THING - you've defined beat three to be feet together, but step three officially begins with the foot only halfway closed.
Re: To understand
Posted by Anon 3.
11/18/2006  2:47:00 AM
Anonymous. Try for yourself. Have another person who is going to do the 123 your way. You count 1 and 2 and three and. With the foot closing on an and. You need a third person to give an opinion of which looks the best and is the most musical. I know which one wins everytime. I've seen it enough times. Don't forget to save three and, till last.Then let the other guy have a go.
Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/18/2006  6:37:00 AM
"Anonymous. Try for yourself. Have another person who is going to do the 123 your way. You count 1 and 2 and three and. With the foot closing on an and. You need a third person to give an opinion of which looks the best and is the most musical."

Anon3, this dispute has nothing to do with the music. You started out by complaining that people do not dance the rise as it is written in the book.

But it turns out that you yourself aren't trying to dance the rise that is written in the book.

Instead you are dancing that read through the mistake of substituting musical beats for the step numbers. The book defines things in terms of steps, and it defines when those steps begin and end. These DO NOT MATCH what you have defined for the musical beats.

Re: To understand
Posted by Anonymous
11/18/2006  6:52:00 AM
By the way, I didn't say that the foot shouldn't close on on the and after two. What I said was that the later half of the closing is officially part of step three. But I was quite carefully not to say that you shouldn't dance that part of step three during part of beat two - it may well be appropriate to do so.

The formal start and end of steps in the book is given to have a timeline on which to place actions like rise and fall or CBM. I can see no discussion in the book of precisely what part of a step relates to what part of a beat - the general amounts of time have been suggested, but how they line up has been left unsaid.

Left to your artistic interpretation, apparently.

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