Oh Dear. The most percussive beat in a Waltz is the first beat. To me that is a down beat. Being that two and three aren't as percussive I would call them up beats. I would think that one is flat two is rising and three is risen. Can anybody explain to me how three can be classed as a down beat.
In Jive beats 2 and 4 are up beats.

"Oh Dear. The most percussive beat in a Waltz is the first beat. To me that is a down beat. Being that two and three aren't as percussive I would call them up beats."

If you were dealing with a viennese waltz in 3/8 time and felt as 1 big beat per measure, you would be right. But not for a 3/4 time slow waltz. There each beat has a downbeat (the number) and an upbeat (the and).

"In Jive beats 2 and 4 are up beats."

Because although this music is often written in 4/4, it can be though of as cut time - 1 and 3 become beats 1 and 2, while the written 2 and 4 become their and's.

If you combine beats into larger "feeling" beats, then you can start calling numbered beats upbeats. But if you take what is written and subdivide it into smaller units, then the number as downbeat and "and" as upbeat becomes dominant.

Anonymous. Going to your original message at the top. Just clarify for me on the second step . Is your moving leg along side the standing leg. Or is it moving from a position that is behind to complete the second step. In other words are you missing the gathering of the weight on one ( and ).
Are you also one of those who believes that we lower and move at the same time. If so does your standing heel touch the floor.If you move and lower it is extremely difficult to get the heel on the floor.
And lastly. Your last paragraph needs to be clarified. If I read correctly you are up for the whole of three and falling onto one. I don't see how .But that is what it appears to say. You obviously do not beleive that the rise and lowering take place all on the beat of three. So being that there are two definite moves we call it three and. What do you call it. The book says rise on three. Lower at the end of three.

"Just clarify for me on the second step . Is your moving leg along side the standing leg. Or is it moving from a position that is behind to complete the second step."

The second step of a forward natural turn is defined to begin when the left foot passes the standing right, and to end when the right is halfway closed to the standing left.

"In other words are you missing the gathering of the weight on one ( and )."

Not quite sure what you mean. There absolutely must not be any pause there - this is where you are seriously curving up in the rise, and any pause will kill off your energy. You want to dance right on through step one, converting speed to rise.

Also, I must remind you again that the "and" after one belongs mostly to step two, not step one - at least if you plan to land each of your steps squarely on a downbeat.

"Are you also one of those who believes that we lower and move at the same time. If so does your standing heel touch the floor.If you move and lower it is extremely difficult to get the heel on the floor."

This is precisely the constraint that governs your path of lowering. When lowering from foot closure, the travel before the standing heel touches down need to be small enough that the forward partner's weight can touch their heel before advancing through the foot. As a result, most of the travel will be in the second part of the lowering, which occurs as the knees bend and project the body forard into imbalance as the lowering bottoms out.

When lowering feet apart, the path is that which will cause the forward partner's weight to go through their heel before traveling forwards.

"If I read correctly you are up for the whole of three and falling onto one. I don't see how .But that is what it appears to say."

No, it's not what I said. You get confused because you are trying to combine what I told you about beat three with what I told you about step three - and completely overlooking that I've repeatdly emphasized that beat three and step three do not coincide - they only overlap slightly more than halfway!

"You obviously do not beleive that the rise and lowering take place all on the beat of three. So being that there are two definite moves we call it three and. What do you call it."

"and three" is a far more appropriate counting - if you plan to land your steps on the numbered downbeats, you will have to begin each of them before that numbered beat - you must allow the time for the second half of each leg swing, the time between the beginning of the step and when it finds its placement. That makes the beats nearly halfway offset from the step periods!

"The book says rise on three. Lower at the end of three."

Steps, not beats. Rise on STEP three. Lower at the end of STEP three. But that will not exactly match BEAT three!

Again, see the chasse where the steps are numbered 12345, but the beats are numbered 12+3,1 - see how the rise and fall instructions are clearly with the STEPS and not with the BEATS. Apart from being written next to the STEPS rather than the beats, quite obviously lower end of four can't mean the end of beat four because waltz doesn't have a beat four.

Anonymous. First we must always put the name of the dance we are refering to. I know it is the Waltz. You know it is the Waltz. With so many posts inbetween it can get confusing to say the least for others trying to make sense out of it.
Waltz. First Three of a Natural. We do not stop. After the first step which at the same time is turning the LF comes underneath the body which has already got a flexed knee and can flex even more. This is how we can deal with music which may be ultra slow. It does happen. If go to the Learning Centre you will see a change in style to the above. You will see the first step taken and then step two goes straight through relying on the power of step one to carry it through. This in my opinion is what I believe I can see. Then we go to Richard Gleaves who teaches that there is a second compression. Then we go to Andrew who as a practise has us as the left foot arrives under the body to lift it off the floor before pushing to the side off a flexed knee..
Now we are going to have a inconstancy here . That is the person who believes in the first movement. The lady is not going to be able to do it that way. Her foot will have to pass very much under the body. And so will the man if he completes 456 of a Natural, and the lady on 456 of a Spot Turn. So what we have here is that nobody can say I am right and you are wrong. But what we can do is find out what is being taught and performed by our most highest competitors. If you say to me . No that is not the way it is being done in competition . You are more than likely right if you have been looking closely.
I won't carry on here. But I can definitly say that on my tapes and the seminar They are talking about music with steps. And dance with the music playing calling out aloud 1 and 2 and 3 and. In fact we do it every week on the basics as a warm up.

"But I can definitly say that on my tapes and the seminar They are talking about music with steps. And dance with the music playing calling out aloud 1 and 2 and 3 and. In fact we do it every week on the basics as a warm up."

My suspicion is that the person making your tape simply forgot that beats and steps don't match up, but instead only overlap partway.

It certainly would be simpler if they did match up... but that's not the set of techincal defintions which have been established.

This would scarecely be the first prominent dancer to recommend something in private or even on tape which is strongly in conflict with the official technique.

Anonymous. How can anybody in there right mind say that steps and beats are seperate in the technique books. When Alex Moore wrote that the first step of a Feather has two beats. Or Wally Laird when he wrote that step one is on beat two in the Rumba. Why did Alex at the front of the instructions give a rundown of the tempo and so on.
Waltz. The rise must be gradual and felt throughout the turns, The full excent of the rise not being reached until the feet are closed on the third step.
By saying that the instruction book is only refering to steps would mean I can place those steps any place any time. When I dance I will do my own thing and the music presenter must manipulate the music to fit my dancing. But that won't work either because I will ignore the music and we will never synchronise. I was at a lecture given by Espen Salsburg who made a point of complimenting the music presenter from the night before for his excellent music, and added that without music we have no dance. So we will say again. The steps must fit the music and not the music fit the steps. I don't think Alex would have thought anybody would take it any other way.Do you really believe that when he compiled the steps he didn't have the music in mind. Without music there is no dance so consiquently without music there are no steps.

"Anonymous. How can anybody in there right mind say that steps and beats are seperate in the technique books."

Because they quite obviously don't match up in an aligned 1-for-1 correpespondence. Of course there is a relationship between them, and that is important, but if you actually try to write it out it would be quite messy. Much better to time the movement of the body to the music, and simply sequence the feet as needed to support the body.

"When Alex Moore wrote that the first step of a Feather has two beats."

Step 1, two beat. And step 2, one beat, and step 3, one beat. Beats and steps don't match, do they - and the rise and fall instructions go with the steps, not with the beats. Or in the waltz chasse, beats and steps can't possibly match (whoever heard of beat 4 in a waltz), and the rise and fall clearly is listed with the steps not the beats.

Or in a waltz natural turn - 3 steps and 3 beats (confusing, no?) but guess what - they still don't match, and the rise and fall instructions still go with the STEPS NOT THE BEATS.

"Or Wally Laird when he wrote that step one is on beat two in the Rumba."

Now latin is a whole other kettle of fish.

"Why did Alex at the front of the instructions give a rundown of the tempo and so on."

Because the music is important. It just isn't true that beats and steps line up exactly 1 for 1 - instead, they line up with an offset, even when there is the same number of each.

"By saying that the instruction book is only refering to steps would mean I can place those steps any place any time."

The book's job isn't to teach you abosolutely everything - mostly it is there to outline details which you can connect to form the desired movements.

Use your artisitc judgement and place them to the music.

Anonymous. I still don't understand your thinking. How do the beats not match the steps. If they don't you are out of time. Two beats for the first step followed by two more on the following two steps which are quicks. Unless as we were instructed once the first step of the Feather had one beat along with the other two. Which meant we let the first beat go and did the heal lead on the second beat making the step a quick. There was another way where we did the introduction step on beat one and used the second beat for the first step in the Feather. That was only a part of it.
And on a Chasse in the Waltz. Why would you need four beats. Have you not heard of syncopation. Be carefull what you say here. It must apply all through your dancing. After reading your bit about four beats in the Waltz. Then how come we can do in the Waltz a Tipple Chasses. What about the ladies Double Reverse Spin. Alex Moore again quote. The lady will notice that she has four steps to dance in three beats of music. But according to you he speaks not of music.
If I were you I would try not to turn dancing into a lesson in science. You'll only tie yourself into a knot , or should I say torque or twist.

"Anonymous. I still don't understand your thinking. How do the beats not match the steps."

Even when the step takes an exact number of beat units, that period of time almost never spans a whole number of actual beats.

It a step is going to land "on" the beat, then it must start BEFORE the beat and end AFTER the beat.

The relationship may be consistent, but there is an OFFSET.

"And on a Chasse in the Waltz. Why would you need four beats. Have you not heard of syncopation. Be carefull what you say here. It must apply all through your dancing."

The key point is that when the chasse says lower end of FOUR, it does not mean BEAT four, it means STEP four. Similarly, when the waltz natural says lower end of THREE, it does not mean BEAT three but rather STEP three.

See the pattern yet?

"If I were you I would try not to turn dancing into a lesson in science."

I rarely worry about the relationship of beats to steps, because individual steps are not important in the standard dances. Instead I worry about what is important - matching the trend of my body movement to the music.

However, if you insist on trying to construct a precise relationship between beats and steps, I'm here to argue with you as long as you keep stating it incorrectly.