[SmoothGeezer]"Body turn doesn't start at the end of step 1. It starts in the beginning of step 1 (the 1/4 turn)"

That was the difference I was making between your turn and Serendipidy's and IMHO is the difference between a switch turn and a spot turn. In a spot turn the first step is taken across the body which remains, as far as possible, facing the partner until the foot lands. Making a 1/4 turn at the start of the step means that the step is forward and the figure becomes a switch turn.

The footwork variations of two steps or step and replace are options in both figures.

The step-turn action is the reason Wally Laird uses the term forward walk turning. I think it proved too difficult to write a definition which covered every situation so later manuals seem to cover the point in detailed comments.

Some figures lend themselves to musical interpretation or are in constant 'development'. An example is the timing of the lady's twist in an open hip twist which often appears on beat 1 or 2 or anywhere in between. A turn on beat 1 would make the step a fwd walk turning, but not if the turn is made on beat 2. The book says the turn is commenced towards the end of the previous step, so which description fits?

SmoothGeezer.First .I quote and if possible I give the description and the page number or where the description of the step came from whether it be from a DVD a video
or a book. A Spot Turn in the Rumba as we all know is Ball Flat. We can only do one thing at a time. So with the beat does the ball arrive on the beat, or does the heel lower on the beat. Think about it. Are you lowering on the beat or are you lowering behind the beat. In a Samba because of the speed of the music it is criticle that we know what we are supposed to be doing.
Back to the Spot Turn in the Rumba. Give the first step a count of two and. Make sure that you do a one complete turn on step one. Wally Laird pages 28 and 29. Your body will be facing partner at the start as well as the end of step one. Forget about your feet for a while and get that body around. All Spot Turns are with the whole of the foot flat on the floor. Laird is absolutely correct when he says one complete turn on step one.
The other book. I have the 1983 version. Its description of a Spot Turn page 19 is the worst description of any step I can ever remember seeing. Her goes some of those whos names appear in the front cover couldn't dance their way out of a paper bag then or now.
If you look closly at some of the competitions, in the Cha particularly, you will see the moving foot off the floor often. It is only a matter of time before this is in the technique books. The speed of the moving foot will decide. There is a lot more but thats enough for now.

[Serendipidy]"Make sure that you do a one complete turn on step one. Wally Laird pages 28 and 29. Your body will be facing partner at the start as well as the end of step one."

No!

"Laird is absolutely correct when he says one complete turn on step one."

That is not what he says!

Besides just quoting from the book, you need to read and understand what is written. Look again at the section you quoted from. There are three rows, one for each step, giving step no., timing, beat value, foot position, footwork, and action used. In the final column, body turn, there is only one row covering all three steps indicating that the turn is completed over those three steps.

Check the charts of other figures to see where a turn is broken into parts and some steps have no turn.

Look also at the lady's rope spinning, page 46. Here again a complete turn is made, this time over six steps not all on step 1.

Social Dancer. Personaly I don't even think about it. Apart from taking the first step across the body and giving it a count of two and. The rest is up to me or the teachers style for that particular step. As a competition dancer we can do what ever we wish. If the judge doesn't like what he sees one of the others might. At the end of the third step I will have abided by the rules, or the second step or the first.The description leaves a big leeway especially when the heading says Body Turn..... Body Turn What do you think. Would you have put Body Turn as that heading.
This brings up another point on a New York Rumber or Cha. as you come out of the check do you turn your body to your partnr whilst your feet are still in the same position beforeyou move them. Its just something I noticed on a DVD. If its Cha you will get a better Chasse.
In closing. If you do not turn your body you will look like a cardboard cutout lacking a third dimention.

Hi to All,

Serencipidy. Quote:

/* The description leaves a big leeway especially when the heading says Body Turn..... Body Turn What do you think. Would you have put Body Turn as that heading. */

Please read the 3rd paragraph under the heading of, AMOUNTS OF TURN, on page 9 of the Technique of LATIN DANCING by the late Walter Laird.

lluv2Dance. I've read page 9 many times before. There is nothing there that alters the fact with our best dancers that on just about every step there has body shaping. They do not dance like a block of wood. I can easily complete a full turn with my body without my feet moving from the spot they are standing on. A simple test in shaping. Stand with one foot in front of the other.The RF forward will do. Now pull the left shoulder as far back as is comfortable. Without moving the feet now pull the right shoulder back as far as is comfortable and maybe a bit further. This with our best dancers is what you can see all the time. If it didn't register before I am sure it will from now on. I've been looking at Paul Killick , he does several Solo Spot Turns in his Rumba and do you know what....
The question is. As we turn on a Spot Turn are you facing straight down the floor after turning. That is about 3/4 of a turn. Even less if the first step was taken up the floor. We need a full turn and no swivelling. Does anybody else have the video of a competition on which Gaynor Fairweather said we hate to see swivelling on New Yorks. I've got it.

The only disagreement I have with your post is the term " Shldr "-- right side left side indicates that the " body " is employed in rotation

terence2, are you agreeing that there is a complete turn on step 1 of a spot turn?!

SocialDancer.Find a DvD or on youtube of a couple of world class dancers. Look at one step only in slow motion that is the first step of a Spot Turn. Do you see what appears to be a wind up of the upper body on that first step caused by the feet stepping across the body. If this was Modern it would be called a very strong CBMP. Take a look at the use of the arms as well as the head all used to assist the rotation of the body. Do you see the unwinding and the continuous movement of the body which then leaves the feet behind which is exactly opposite to the first part where the foot walks away from the body. This is very hard to put into words. The best thing to do is to watch several and compare the slightly different actions being used.
If after turning on step one you are facing square down the floor. That is too bland , no style, and is very ordinary. Use the upper body.

It's very difficult to find video of world class dancers dancing spot turns in the same way that they rarely dance a hockey stick. They prefer to show off more exciting stuff which the audience expect.
When you do see one, or more likely when the lady dances an underarm or alemana turn, the turn is very definitely split into separate parts.

I rarely see Paul Killick dance spot turns. I suspect what you have seen is him dancing a series of solo spins which he does quite often, but a spin is not the same as a spot turn.

To return to Laird's description of a spot turn and your interpretation of it. Please try the following spot turn to the right.

Stand feet apart, facing the wall, weight on R foot.
1) Cross LF over body and step on it, leaving the RF approximately in place, and make the complete turn that you say we should so that you are again facing the wall.
Would you now describe your foot position as LF back and slightly to side as Laird describes? Or are you legs crossed?
2) Replace weight to RF in place
3) Can you now with your LF take a fwd walk turning to end LF to side facing the wall?