The step in question is step 3. And the subject comes out of a misunderstanding of the comment about where step 3 goes in relation to the partner's foot.

It's just the right foot, unusually, doing the mirror image of what the left foot usually does. That is no reason to suspect CBMP, and so there is nothing notable about the fact that CBMP isn't to be used.

Had Moore simply said outside the partner's foot as the ISTD now does, the mistaken association of this step with the idea of outside partner that spawned this question would never have occurred.

"the right foot goes outside the partner's left. "

Ah, OK. If you accept that statement then everything you say makes sense, and Alex Moore, Guy Howard and Elizabeth Romain were all wrong.

While I applaud the ISTD for trying to clarify the action to a stepping outside the foot instead of partner, they then managed to confuse the situation further by making a typographical error in referring to the partner's LF instead of RF.

It's one heck of a step to place the RF outside the partner's LF. Remember this is "forward and slightly to side, small step". Where the fishtail is taken with turn it is possible to use the turn to take the foot outside the line of the partner's LF but that probably needs more of a side step than a forward step.

In the case of the fishtail taken with no turn it would definitely need a side step to get over to the right of the partner's LF. Taking the RF forward and slightly side brings it naturally to the left of the partner's RF, pretty much O/P.

Fishtal. Ok guys lets regroup here. Somebody mentioned the third step. I take it they are including the Cross Swivell as part of the Fishtail which it is not.
Inside Outside. Inside is between the ladies feet. Outside is outside the ladies feet to her right. And we also have Outside the lady to her Left which could be a Left side Feather.
The Fishtail can follow any step outside the partner on the man's RF. This could be what is normaly the first step of an ordinary Lock Step. Somebody is in the way so we change what was going to be a Lock Step into a Fishtail. The first step of a Lock Step is Outside Partner. End of storey. To even argue about this shows that there is a lack of technical knowledge lurking out there.

Rewind Serendipidy.

You yourself asked the question, "Is there any step outside the partner in any of the dances that doesn't have CBMP."

The answer is yes, step 3 of the fishtail, though anonymouse argues that the step is not in fact outside partner.

The cross swivel is not included except as a possible precede requiring a turn in the following fishtail.

We are all agreed that step 1 of the fishtail is taken outside partner and that it is in CBMP.

Let us not foget the lady is also moving her feet. She is not stationary even though that first step is very much on the spot. I was always taught to say, down up up up up down.

"While I applaud the ISTD for trying to clarify the action to a stepping outside the foot instead of partner, they then managed to confuse the situation further by making a typographical error in referring to the partner's LF instead of RF."

There is no typographical error. The man's right foot goes outside, to his own right, of his partner's left foot. Instead of between her feet, which is what the right foot usually does.

And it's not just the ISTD saying that - if you go back to Alex Moore's drawings, and superimpose the man's steps on the lady's this is what you get. His right, outside her left rather than inside of it.

Something I will say is that 'outside' and 'inside' depend to on the perspective that you are looking from. One could say that her ankle is in fact further to his right than his own ankle is. Possibly even most of her foot, depending on how far apart they are. But if you draw a line forward from heel to toe of his right footprint, her footprint is to the left of it, instead of to the right as it would be for an ordinary inline step.

I can't quite say that Moore was wrong to say that the step goes outside partner, because in fact if it's outside her foot it's outside the rest of her too. But in saying it that way, he confused a lot of people, by inadvertently evoking the usual dance concept of 'Outside Partner' which is not even remotely involved in this step.

The ISTD choosing instead to say that the step is outside the partner's foot communicates the important detail, without leading anyone to jump to mistaken conclusions about it having anything to do with what we think of as an outside partner step.

"In the case of the fishtail taken with no turn it would definitely need a side step to get over to the right of the partner's LF. Taking the RF forward and slightly side brings it naturally to the left of the partner's RF, pretty much O/P."

The right foot already was in classic outside partner position on step 1 where the left foot ideally locked to it on step 2. The "fish flopping it's tail" effect of the fishtail comes in large part from the right foot now going back across to its own side of the body. If it's stays across the body in outside partner position and CBMP, that won't happen - it needs to get back over to it's own side to create the flip-flop contrast.

Tom. As usuall we have gone completely away from your question.If in the Waltz we do a Wing followed by a Chasse to the Right . The next step has the man going backwards on his LF, the lady forward on her RF outside partner both in CBMP. CBMP reqires that the whole side of the body is leading and the step is taken across the body keeping the shoulders and side in place untill after that step is completed.
Every step taken outside partner requires CBMP. CBMP is reqired on the first step of a Lock Step which is forward outside partner with CBMP for the man on the heel on his RF.
If you wish to turn that into a Fishtail which is a Quickstep variation you can.
I would hope that is easier to understand than all that other clap trap.

Serendipidy, the simple answer to Tom's original question would have been, Yes, both partner's hips are turned to the right to maintain body contact.

Now to continue the clap-trap on the tangent which you started, and the discussion with Anymouse:

"if you go back to Alex Moore's drawings, and superimpose the man's steps on the lady's this is what you get. His right, outside her left rather than inside of it."

That depends which edition you look at. When I try this with my copy of the 9th Ed, the track of the man's RF passes straight over the lady's RF, which I hope nobody does, but it is still inside the lady's LF.

The 3rd Ed is better but shows the man's RF on top of the Lady's RF. Interestingly, in this edition the description of the relevant step includes the words "STILL outside partner" (my emphasis). No suggestion there of moving across to outside partner on the other side.
Even though the step is classically outside partner the turn made means that the foot is not placed in CBMP. This is not so obvious where the figure is danced without turn but there is still sufficient sideways movement to take the foot out of CBMP.

"The "fish flopping it's tail" effect of the fishtail comes in large part from the right foot now going back across to its own side of the body"

All those who danced and taught the fishtail before the ISTD's 'amendment' had no problems emulating the whip of a fishes tail. It was however a horizontal whip as seen when a fish is swimming, not the vertical pendulum swing seen nowadays.
It was not so easy to show this action when the simplified straight fishtail became popular so a different interpretation is often seen, and it may be that what I and others believe to be a mis-print in the ISTD manual has inadvertantly led to a change in the figure. In fact many are now taught the fishtail as a variant of an even simpler figure combination - check & twinkle.
I'm using the English 'twinkle' not the American Astaire/Murray style.

To clarify the Check & Twinkle (man's steps, lady normal opposite):

1 RF fwd OP in CBMP (check) S H
2 Replace weight back to LF Q T
3 RF closes to LF Q T (up to 1/4 turn to R may be made over steps 2 & 3)
4 LF fwd L side leading Q T
5 RF crosses behind LF Q T
6 LF diag fwd Q TH
Continue RF fwd OP in CBMP into any natural figure


"Evidently, the example question and answer were compiled by someone who looked at the trivia of a poorly worded old description, but didn't really think about the meaning implied."

The question and answer were compiled by the late Elizabeth Romain, one time vice president of the ISTD, who regularly lectured on the ballroom technique and presented the "Technique on Video" series aimed at professionals studying for their exams.

Guy Howard also says in his definition of CBMP "CBMP is used on all OP steps, except step 3 of fishtail"

"That depends which edition you look at. When I try this with my copy of the 9th Ed, the track of the man's RF passes straight over the lady's RF, which I hope nobody does, but it is still inside the lady's LF."

My usage of the idea of the track of the foot was not the path that it had followed, but instead a projection of its alignment - which is how the word is used when defining CBMP, for example.

It's obvious that the path that the man's right foot follows from it's placement on step 1 to its placement on step 3 cannot pass through his partner's standing leg, and so will instead be a little bit of a withdrawl and re-extend.

What I meant by the track is that if you draw a line down the footprint one the foot is placed, from heel to toe, that is clearly aimed in a direction outside of the footprint of where the lady's left foot is. Arguably, that puts the man's right foot outside of the lady's left foot.

Personally, I don't think it's absolutely essential that the foot get outside of hers, what is of primary conceptual importance is that there's a switch from being in a classic outside partner position (outside her right foot) on step 1, to being over on the other side of the couple, somewhere near her left foot, on step 3. With that conceptual goal in mind, the perfect foot position can be found by experimenting to gain understanding of the job of each step. I suspect that when you do the experiment it will turn out that the best position for the foot actually is where Moore draws it and the ISTD describes it - slightly outside her left - but would leave that to experiment rather than making a large instructional issue of it.

Because it's making an explicit comment about this unusual foot position that seems to have created a few decades of gross confusion!

The step obviously does not remain outside the partner's right foot - it's simply not drawn on that side of the couple. And even if it did, the body position necessary to do that would be the one we call CBMP. Perhaps a turned out back foot might disqualify the position relative to that standing foot as CBMP of the feet, but in all practical terms it would be a CBMP body position. Which it's not, because the foot goes back to its own side of the bodies.

"Guy Howard also says in his definition of CBMP "CBMP is used on all OP steps, except step 3 of fishtail""

Yes, another source of that confusing use of the words "outside partner" to mean something other than what "Outside Partner" customarily means - which has apparently confused quite a number of distinguished dancers over the years!

It's not outside her right foot, it's over by, and ideally outside, her left one.

Why all this concern about step three of a Fishtail. Let it go where it has to. I can't see any need to analize the step. Do it as it is supposed to be done alignment wise. After a Cross Swivell turned to diag to centre. Then start turning to the right to face wall over the next couple of steps. I'm sure step three will be where it is supposed to be.