only rationalizations.

Had you bothered to make the connections among the details of your scenario, you should have realized that you are actually confirming my point of view and not the one which you have convinced yourself that you need.

Sad. Truly sad.

jj

"only rationalizations."

No, the simple fact of why we book those lessons - because nothing else is nearly as effective in improving our dancing.

Until you've personally taken lessons with some of the world's best, all you can really do is GUESS at what the experience is or isn't worth. However high ranked they are, currently competing teachers just do not have the same experience and insight as those who have retired from world finals and then spent another decade coaching the world finalists who followed them.

Those of us who have taken the chance of booking a double priced lesson with one of these teachers know for a fact how much it helps.

And don't make the mistake of assuming that only advanced students can benefit. Serious students of any level can, because the more experienced and insightful the teacher, the more basic the subjects they will preferentially address.

Now I'm certain that you don't know what you're writing about.

One thing matters most in a dancer's development: time on the floor, both alone and with a REAL partner.

It is the student - not the instructor - who determines the effectiveness of the lesson.

I don't address this topic based on mere speculation. Years ago, I found myself ignorantly playing the same shell-out-the-money game which you are trying to defend. When the idiocy of what I was doing became undeniable, I walked out on the spot - in the middle of the competition. I never worked with any of the people on whom I had been wasting time and money again.

A dancer with an amateur partner will develop far faster than ne who only dances with professionals. One reason for this advantage is that, by sharing expenses, the two dancers can afford more time on the floor and more lessons together. They realize ten times as much of their full dance potential.

Atlanta has been overrun by pro/am; every major studio pushes it. I used to hear all of the time from women who "couldn't afford to practice with their pro and wanted to work with an amateur as well." The aim of this gimmick is to sell more lessons for the pro. When I added a note to the sites that I use that I was not interested in a pro/am tramp, the responses stopped.

When you compare the actual amount of usable knowledge transfered from an overpaid "expert" when compared to that from many more moderately priced instructors, the exhorbitant cost cannot be justified.

There are many first-class instructors who keep their fees low, rightly confident in the knowledge that they will always have plenty of business. When Terence was in Atlanta (and I consider him to be a top quality teacher in spite of his occasional stuffiness), he offered rates that could be fairly described as a bargain.

Time is always a more important investment for any dance couple than money.



jj

"No, the simple fact of why we book those lessons - because nothing else is nearly as effective in improving our dancing.

Now I'm certain that you don't know what you're writing about."

I don't know why I book lessons?

I think I'll let the absurdity of your claim stand for itself!

"It is the student - not the instructor - who determines the effectiveness of the lesson."

Only if the information being presented is accurate. The more experience you gain, the more you realize that what was presented to you in the past was not accurate, or was at least somewhat mixed up. It might have worked to enable dancing at a certain level, but to go further you have to replace the bad information with better information. That's what your teacher's teacher can do for you, that your usual teacher cannot.

"I don't address this topic based on mere speculation. Years ago, I found myself ignorantly playing the same shell-out-the-money game which you are trying to defend. When the idiocy of what I was doing became undeniable, I walked out on the spot - in the middle of the competition. I never worked with any of the people on whom I had been wasting time and money again."

You either never spent your lesson time on the right subjects or studied with those who can be famous when they travel, but are not really all that expert in the context of the world community. Unfortunately, there are some of these running around who have a great following, but really just aren't very good teachers.

Also, one of the most wasteful things you can do with a visiting coach is dance your routine for them. If you want value for your money, ask a basic question - for example "how does the natural turn really work?".

"Atlanta has been overrun by pro/am"

Yes, it's not regarded as a very strong location for serious dancing, so what is left is commercialized dancing. That may affect who chooses to visit there to teach as well, and what mindset they are in when they arrive.

"When you compare the actual level of usable knowledge transfer from an overpaid "expert" when compared to that from many more moderately priced instructors, the exhorbitant cost cannot be justified."

All you have done here is reinforce your statement that you've never had worthwhile lessons with visiting experts. If you were a serious enough student (at whatever level you dance) to be in a position to benefit from a true expert, and had worked with one, you'd have a very different view of the financial equation. Paying twice the normal rate for an extraordinary opportunity is not "exorbitant".

"Time is always a more important investment for any dance couple than money."

How much time are you willing to waste practicing under mistaken guidance?

If local professionals have been your only meaningful guide, perhaps quite a lot - you've just summarized the reason why the dancing of average professionals is highly rehearsed, but built on relatively poor technique - they have lots of time to practice, but nowhere near enough expert guidance.

Spend some time with pros who actually win their events, copy their work habits, take from the same experts they do, and you'll find your dancing progresses a bit better. But just buying what the commercialized dance industry wants to sell you? No, that's not going to make you much progress, no matter how much or little you pay for it.

For $150 - plus the cost your regular teacher, say $210-220 total - you are not going to get anything worthwhile in one hour - and it's usually 45 minutes - from someone who does not work with you on a regular basis.

Th difference between you and myself is that I'm a very critical dance consumer and you clearly are not.

No, you will get nothing from that "expert" to make a dramatic difference in the way you dance that you can't get from good, veteran teachers with less glorified resumes'.



jj

"For $150 - plus the cost your regular teacher, say $210-220 total - you are not going to get anything worthwhile in one hour - and it's usually 45 minutes - from someone who does not work with you on a regular basis."

I've never had to pay a local teacher to function as a partner for a guest lesson, instead I've booked with my partner or with a friend. I have had a local teacher offer to do this - for free - because it's of non-zero positive benefit to them as well.

The amount of information that can be transferred between a teacher who has decades of experience presenting world-class detail, and a student who has sufficient experience in the skill of taking lessons, is actually astounding. Until you have experienced this directly, IN A SITUATION WHERE IT WORKED, it's not something you are going to understand.

"Th difference between you and myself is that I'm a very critical dance consumer and you clearly are not."

No, the difference is that I am not a "dance consumer". If you let people treat you as one, your progress is going to be limited. Instead, you need to look at what successful professionals do, and emulate that in your own life, perhaps at a reduced scale. Seriousness is not a function of level, it's a function of attitude and habit. When you approach a lesson with your teacher's teacher in the same way that your teacher would, you will get as much out of it as they do; more likely as the expert will have more to say that is still new to you.

"No, you will get nothing from that "expert" to make a dramatic difference in the way you dance that you can't get from good, veteran teachers with less glorified resumes'."

You are apparently not of sufficient experience yet to have started discovering the numerous instances when your "good, veteran teachers" are simply wrong.

Fundamentally, your criticism amounts to saying that "this thing that top professionals rely on to build their own skills is a waste of money for me". That's a line of argument that says a lot more about you than it does about benefit of or lack of studying with world class experts.

Please tell me exactly how you know that these efforts have worked? What are the criteria which signify the success of your educational efforts?

Your argument is classically bad. You are basically saying that I cannot possibly look a the same situation disagree with you. Later in your response you denigrate my experience, as you have done throughout this thread.

If you pay money for dance services then you are a dance consumer. Period.

Your problem is very simple: you have no confidence in your own judgment. You have a pathetic pschycological need for your beliefs and opinions to be validated by others so that you can feel good about yourself.

But, personalities aside, I'm really interested in finding out just how you know that these overly expensive sessions "worked."

As I stated earlier, I've made the same mistake that you insist on repeating. I paid those prices for sessions with national champions. I saw through the BS; you can't.



jj

"Please tell me exactly how you know that these efforts have worked? What are the criteria which signify the success of your educational efforts?"

The core of my expertise in dancing comes from what I learned in a comparative handful of lessons with world class judges. In contrast, the practical implementation of those ideas along with the more mundane aspects comes from more frequent work with local teachers. Both types of training were absolutely essential - both to my own dancing, and also to the original and ongoing training of my local teachers.

"Your argument is classically bad. You are basically saying that I cannot possibly look a the same situation disagree with you. Later in your response you denigrate my experience, as you have done throughout this thread."

No, I'm saying your perspective is (by your own description) that of someone who has not experienced a lesson with a world class teacher that was worth the money. I'm sorry that all your ventures in that direction have been a waste, but that does not mean that this practice does not work for others. The business of selling something that looks like the genuine article but isn't is unfortunately an old one, but it's existence says nothing about the worth of the genuine article when identified and used as intended.

"As I stated earlier, I've made the same mistake that you insist on repeating. I paid those prices for sessions with national champions. I saw through the BS; you can't."

I am not talking about lessons with national champions, I am talking about lessons with the kind of people who train national champions. Where else do you think the world's competing professionals and championship amateurs get their training?

You hold up your experience in the consumer environment that the lessons that have been offered to you there have not been worth the money for you. In contrast, I hold up the reality of how things work for dancers in the professional and amateur competition worlds, where this is the key source of long range guidance in our development.

But don't just take my word for it - next time you see a strong professional who is not in a position to sell you anything, ask them which coaches were most influential to their development.

Your . . . "expertise" in dancing is proof that your hyper-expensive lessons are worth the cost?

You're joking, right?

Terence is an expert. You are a poser.

No one with any true expertise in dancing would take the almost dismissive attitude toward the mechanics of following and leading that you have expressed on this board.

Do you have an amateur partner - and I mean a real partner, not someone with whom you practice on occasion?


I wouldn't ask them such a question because I know what the keys to their development have been: native athletic ability combined with a love of dance and a joy in teaching others.

Professionals develop their strengths through teaching. "If you want to learn something, teach it to someone else" is the oldest concept in the professionals' handbook, regardless of the field of expertise.

Successful professionals learn from many sources of information, including "world-class" experts.

I've talked with several top professionals and the quesiton that you pose is always one of the first to come up. They pay top dollar to the folks whom you describe as "world class" because they have to do so to find out what the judges are expecting. Just about all of them complain about the expense.



jj

"Your . . . "expertise" in dancing is proof that your hyper-expensive lessons are worth the cost?"

Yes. But I don't know how you get from twice-the-usual-price to "hyper-expensive". If the lessons were not worth quite a bit more than two ordinary lessons I would not have taken them. Sure, they hurt financially, but compared to ordinary lessons they have been an extremely wise investment.

I will not dispute for a minute that there's a large ripping-people-off dark side to the dance industry. But if you can be serious enough in your own efforts, and avoided the business people who are too far gone into that world the remember about dancing for it's own sake, it's different. When a teacher sees in you not a dollar sign but a fractional version of themselves, your dollars are spent much more effectively.

"No one with any true expertise in dancing would take the almost dismissive attitude toward the mechanics of following and leading that you have expressed on this board."

Dismissive? Hardly, the theory of this is one of my main points of focus.
"But don't just take my word for it - next time you see a strong professional who is not in a position to sell you anything, ask them which coaches were most influential to their development.

I wouldn't ask them such a question because I know what the keys to their development have been: native athletic ability combined with a love of dance and a joy in teaching others."

In so doing, you construct an artificial barries between the professionals and yourself, a world in which you are a consumer and they are a dancer. If instead you would research the truth of how they came to be who they are, by doing such things as actually asking them, then implement this in yourself you could break down this wall and get a lot more value for your money.
"Professionals develop their strengths through teaching. "If you want to learn something, teach it to someone else" is the oldest concept in the professionals' handbook, regardless of the field of expertise."

You might try that yourself, it could well be useful.

"I've talked with several top professionals and the quesiton that you pose is always one of the first to come up. They pay top dollar to the folks whom you describe as "world class" because they have to do so to find out what the judges are expecting. Just about all of them complain about the expense."

This is the pessimistic attitude of someone who has been sold a bill of goods by those who look at him as a dollar sign. Find some teachers who recognize the fractional peer in you and give them reason to do so, and you'll discover what dancing is like from the inside. Sure, it's expensive. But it's also informative.

I had the experience once of watching a world finalist couple taking a lesson with one of the top judges, now retired from competition for years. What was amazing was how much better the dancing looked when the teacher substituted for either half of the couple. When you've seen something like that, you know that there's far more to it than buying marks.