Interested. Be carefull of this one. If i were to use my left side before i place my foot that would be CBMP and i would be stepping outside my partner.

"Interested. Be carefull of this one. If i were to use my left side before i place my foot that would be CBMP and i would be stepping outside my partner."

It depends on when the left side achieves an advance. If it is before the start of the step in question (before the feet have passed to end the previous step), then yes this would be a step into CBMP because it is then stepping in a direction relative to the pre-existing condition at the start of the step.

However, achieving a left side lead after the step begins, but before the step is placed does not result in CBMP.

Remember that CBMP is defined as a position relative to the standing foot, not as the result of CBM. It is named for the resemblance to the result of CBM, but it is not defined as the result of CBM because that is not how it is achieved.

CBMP is a foot position only which is usually used when stepping O/S partner, thats all that needs to be said. Another way is shoulder in position. Step across the body towards that shoulder with the opposite foot. Use the outside edge of foot. Failure to use the outside edge will result in the shoulder loosing its position. Which we see most of the time with the poorly trained.

agree

You need to "update " your terminology.. the word " shoulder " was removed from descriptions a few yrs back .. it had created over time, many mis-shapen body lines.. "left side and Right side " are now the words of choice...

"You need to "update " your terminology.. the word " shoulder " was removed from descriptions a few yrs back"

Actually, not it wasn't. The reason it wasn't is that it was not part of the official description of CBMP to begin with.

What was changed was the language used to specify a side or shoulder lead, which is the opposite possibility from CBMP.

In the case of CBMP, the description of stepping under the opposite should remains accurate, but unofficial.

As a prof. I may use whatever terminology I choose.. however.. I stand by my statement that the use of the word "shldr " only invites contorted body actions (and, how many Pros. and Amat. have you taught??..( I think I know )..

The accuracy of an "action " is not always best served, by a description that often will result in an undesired consequence .

And if the term was acceptable, then why bother to change it at all, no matter WHERE its usage was applied !( of which i am fully aware )

"And if the term was acceptable, then why bother to change it at all, no matter WHERE its usage was applied !( of which i am fully aware )"

Your argument is nonsensical. The term was not changed for the subject in question, because it was never used for the subject in question to begin with!

The use of the word shoulder in describing where to place the foot in CBMP is entirely applicable, for reasons having nothing to do with the now-deprecated historic usage for an earlier version of what we now call the side-leading position.

The specific reason people say under the shoulder for CBMP is because it is both factually descriptive and tends to obtain the desired result.

Please note that people are not saying rotate your shoulder over your foot, they are saying place your foot under your shoulder. It will be immediately obvious that one tends to produce contortion while the other does not.

A side-leading step is the opposite of a step with CBM, not of one taken in CBMP (although the CBMP with CBM can occur on the same step, which takes some explaining to beginners). CBMP gives the "appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body".

We are very careful indeed with shoulder movements, aren't we? It sometimes helps beginners to feel a backwards CBM as coming from the hips, rather than from the shoulder (Moore), but that terminology dates from a time when Moore was still writing about "shoulder-leading", and its been a long time since anyone else did. Otherwise, by and large, we don't move 'em.

"A side-leading step is the opposite of a step with CBM, not of one taken in CBMP"

Wrong.

In both CBMP and side leading situations, the orientation of the body relative to the feet is pre-established. If you take a series of diagonal steps with unchanging foot alignment and body orientation, they will be in side lead, CBMP, side lead, CBMP, etc - CBMP and side lead are essentially the same condition, but the appropriate name depends if the if the moving foot is on the side where it will extend the body alignment or if it is on the side where it will step across the body alignment.

Contrastingly, in CBM actions, the orientation is established by body rotation during the step.

A feather is a great example of the typical sequence of events.

1) Use CBM to establish an orientation of the body relative to the feet.

2) This orientation means the body orientation is on the same side as the moving foot, so we say we have a side leading.

3) We are now moving the opposite foot across that same body orientation, so we now call it CBMP.

"We are very careful indeed with shoulder movements, aren't we? It sometimes helps beginners to feel a backwards CBM as coming from the hips, rather than from the shoulder (Moore), but that terminology dates from a time when Moore was still writing about "shoulder-leading", and its been a long time since anyone else did. Otherwise, by and large, we don't move 'em."

I would say shoulder rotation is substantial and obvious in natural CBM, but needs to be prevented during the early stages of reverse CBM. Some just simplify to saying that reverse CBM happens late, but that's not really true - what is true is that its effect in the upper body is later and smaller.