Jonathon
are there any plans to add some beginning jive steps (video clips) to your website? I, for one, would really appreciate it.

Thanks, Tim

ps As a beginner international style dancer I've found your other international video featured steps (waltz and cha cha) extremely helpful. Thanks a million!

Thanks Fred and Jonathan for advising me the Jive rhythm. Now I can be no more worried about my feeling. In fact, I thought that I couldn't match up the Jive rhythm before, theologyly 3/4 1/4 1; but I didn't want to change the rhythm that I felt (now I know it's tripplet, thanks again). I agree that it's more naturally when dancing follow tripplet rhythm, and it's what I often see on IDSF competition TV programs.

ISTD seems to be preparing for a new Jive book. We can look forward to some really new changes, esp. in the rhythm But I wonder why they keep the 3/4 1/4 rhythm for so long. They must have a resonable basis, huh?

Here are some things helpful for you:

* Every step in Jive should be taken on the ball of the foot with the knee flexed. When the weight is taken on to the foot the heel lowers, the knee straightens and the hips move softly in the direction of the stepping foot as the heel of the opposite foot is released from the floor.

* The Jive Chassé, in its basic form, is a figure of three steps. The difficulty is the timing of them. The 1st step moves to the side on count '1', which values 3/4 beat. The 2nd step half closes on count 'a', which values 1/2 beat. The 3rd step continues to the side on count '2', which values 1 beat. However, the Jive Chassé may be taken in a forward, backward or sideways direction, with or without turn, or remaining on the spot.

* The weight should always be carried well over the balls of the feet. Although the footwork for a step is usually Ball-Flat, the heels need only lower towards the floor.At slow tempi the footwork of the Jive Chassé is Ball-Flat, Ball, Ball-Flat. At faster tempi, the feet should feel a more springy action and result a footwork of Ball, Ball, Ball-Flat.

Erik,

Some of the confusion stems from differences in terminology between dancers and musicians. A musician would define a piece of music based on its various musical qualities, while a dancer would define the same piece of music by what one might dance to it. That may seem an obvious statement, but it does account for the differences in terminology that lead to the confusion.

For example, as a musician I am of the beleif that there is no such thing as "Jive music". There is fast swing and fast rock, both of which are good for dancing Jive to. But Jive itself is a style of dancing, not a style of music. So you can see where a dancer might say "That song is a good Jive" while a musician might say of the same piece of music, "That's a good swing".

It gets even more confusing with the word "Swing", because unlike Jive, Swing is both a form of music *and* a style of dancing. Swing music is defined by its 2/3, 1/3 subdivision of beats. But Swing dancing is not, because Swing as a dance can be danced to Swing music, or it can be danced to a straight Rock beat.

The reason I bring this up is because you asked if Swing is always divided 2/3, 1/3, and the answer depends on whether you're asking about Swing the music or Swing the dance. Swing music: Always. Swing dancing: Most of the time.

By the way, a great example of a Jive with a 1/2, 1/2 subdivision is "Proud Mary" by Ike & Tina Turner. (A musician would call this an "Upbeat Rock" feel). At the Embassy Ball this weekend, they played this song for the Open Amateur final. Everybody was dancing 1/2, 1/2, whole. At this tempo, I think it would have been physically impossible to dance anything but.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson

Thank you both for your comments. The figure that Pantherson described is the first jive figure that I have learned. I didn't know that it is called "The Fallaway Rock". I agree with you that the chasse is only "Side Close Side".
About the beat values. When my teacher explains a jive figure, he always counts the rhythm 1/2 1/2 1. After that, we have to dance to for example "Return to sender - Elvis" and everybody is dancing 2/3 1/3 1. If you listen to the music, you are automaticly dancing to that rhythm. As Jonathan wrote, it's almost impossible to dance 3/4 1/4 1 when listening to 2/3 1/3 1.
I have never heard a jive with a 3/4 1/4 1 rhythm, but I can read about it in several dance books. For example the great book "Modern Ballroom Dancing" of Victor Silvester. On page 48 you can find "Quick take 1 beat, the 'and' takes 1/4 the value of the preceding quick". So in other words, "quick and quick" means 3/4 1/4 1. I can not agree with that. I'm also a musician and I make ballroom dance music. When I program my drum computer for a jive rhythm, I have to choose the "Triplet" Entry mode wich has 12 steps (4 groups of 3 steps).
I don't know why several books are telling that the jive rhythm is 3/4 1/4 1. I agree with Pantherson that the rhythm 2/3 1/3 1 is more difficult to explain. Perhaps that is the reason. As Jonathan wrote, it is very easy to dance 2/3 1/3 1.

Kind regards,

Fred

Oh yes, there is a typing mistake. I mean the Jive Chassé timing is 3/4 1/4 1

About what Nguyen wrote, you seemed to describe the very basic figure of Jive, either Fallaway Rock or Link Rock. The Fallaway Rock will turns 1/8 to L on 1, as you stepping back, and curves 1/8 to R as you dancing Chassé to L. The Link Rock doesn't turn, but its 1st Chassé (LRL) is danced forward. Here we are discussing about the Chassé action, defined as 2 or 3 steps of which there is a step with the foot closes (or moves towards) the other foot. The first two steps (Back, Replace) shouldn't be mentioned.
I also described the Jive footwork in the last post, generally. Remember not to take any step with heel; and although a step is usually taken with Ball-and then Flat, don't let the heel fully contact with the floor if you don't want to make your movement exaggerate.

Fred's comment was quite exciting. Yes, there is a timing of 1/2 1/2 1, but very boring since you are not dancing Cha Cha Cha. The other, the tripple timing 2/3 1/3 1, I've never heard about this. As far as I know, a music beat is never divided into 3, but into 2. The Jive time signature is 4/4, accentuated in various ways. I will take an example with the Fallaway Rock you gave, as follow:

- The first two step - Back, Replace - takes 1 beat each. You can count QQ.
- The Chassé to Left - Side, Close, Side - is danced as 3/4 1/4 1. You can count QaQ, which an 'a' count equal to 1/4 of Q.
- The Chassé to Right, similarly, takes 2 beats more.
- You, therefore, have to spend 6 beats - 1 1/2 bars - to dance the Fallaway Rock. QQ QaQ QaQ, or 1 1 3/4 1/4 1 3/4 1/4 1

I also tried the timing 2/3 1/3 1 and felt quite strange. I could feel the swing, also. I think the 3/4 1/4 1 timing is quite quick and difficult for beginners, but the 2/3 1/3 1 timing is difficult to teach, theologically. Am I right?

I came in late here and to be honest, didn't read every single post in full. Just a few comments though. Regarding Jonathan's written counts, I was taught to count triplets as "one-trip-let, two-trip-let" rather than "one-and-a, two-and-a". Jonathan wrote that his count is even thirds, but I'd read it more as 1/2, 1/4, 1/4 as in the "one-e-and-a, two-e-and-a" timing for sixteenths. He explained the difference, but to avoid confusion in spoken counts, I'd use "one-trip-let" for even thirds and "one-e-and-a" for quarters.
Minor aside here: I wrote sixteenths for the timing above because musicians read each beat as 1/4 of a measure (in the most common timing); dancers treat each beat as a whole count. So the count of "one-e-and-a" would be seen by dancers as four 1/4 beats while musicians would normally read it in the music as four 1/16 beats. I just thought I'd mention that because I doubt all dancers are musicians or vice versa and I did manage to use both in the same sentence.
Regarding the feel of the music, I've also played a lot of jazz and the swing eighths feel is so common it's almost impossible for me not to play it. It's also in practically all the swing music you hear. The books may say the count is 3/4, 1/4, whole, but that's also a main rhythm in samba and your swing/jive rhythm shouldn't feel the same as samba rhythm. Even if the count is QaQ, the feel of the music leans more towards 2/3, 1/3, whole than 3/4, 1/4, whole and might be somewhere between the two. As far as dancing it goes, I'd just dance it how it felt and not worry about the exact beat subdivisions.
That's my view of a few points in the topic.

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James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

Panther,

Music, especially jazz and swing, is commonly found with beats divided into three equal parts instead of two or four. It is known as "triplet" feel, and is very easy to feel and play. It's also easy to dance to. In fact, if you hear music with a triplet feel, I guarantee that you will dance it as 2/3, 1/3, as it is very difficult to overlay a straight-eighth feel (1/2, 1/2), and almost impossible to overlay a sixteenth-note feel (3/4, 1/4) when listening to triplet feel.

For example, try listening to the following track: https://www.ballroomdancers.com/Music/Albums/HueyLewis_FourChords/2.ram

This song divides each quarter note into three parts, counted "one-and-a two-and-a three-and-a four-and-a". The number falls directly on the downbeat, the "and" falls at the 1/3 point, and the "a" falls at the 2/3 point.

Now to divide the beat into four equal parts, you would count "One-e-and-a" etc, where the "e" falls at the 1/4 point, the "and" at the 1/2, and the "a" at the 3/4 point. Note that the words "and" and "a" do not fall at the same points on a triplet that they do on a sixteenth subdivision.

The moral of the story is that you can't overlay one feel over another. When the music is played as a "triplet" or "swing" feel, you dance 2/3, 1/3, whole. When the music is played with a "straight eighth" or "sixteenth" feel, you dance accordingly. To do otherwise would look and feel off-time.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson

Fred,

What an ear-opener !

You are right: "Stuck with you" is played and sung with triplets. I have started singing "PA pa pa PA pa pa ..." (all equal notes) with the music and I was surprised that at an instant the drums joined me.

Then I listened more carefully to two other typical jive songs, Queens' "Crazy little thing called love" and Wham's "Wake me up before you go-go" and here also towards the end of the song some instruments are actually playing the triplets. Which made it then easier for me to define the short note as 1/3 beat instead of a 1/4 beat.

I should have listened to (jazz) musicians in the first place.

1/4 beat at jive speed must indeed be very quick, undanceable I think. So it is an encouraging idea that I may dance - may I say that in order to interpret the music correctly I should dance - the second step of the jive chassé as 1/3.

So, most jazz and jive music is written with triplets ?

"Blue Monday" is slower than "Stuck with you", also in "Blue Monday" the triplets are actually played, whereas in "Stuck with you" the bass is held for 1 2/3 measure followed by the 1/3 note. Do both songs give you the same dance feeling ?

Jonathan and Fred, thanks for the revelation. Hope to learn more.

Erik

It would probably help if you could be a little more specific. What exactly about it gives you trouble? There are so many potential problems with just about any step that it's difficult to guess what the problem(s) might be, since I can't watch you dance.
Please try to elaborate, and I'll try to help you out.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson