This seems to be the 'collection of points' thread.

On H vs HT - if you fully read that section in Moore, he is making a clear distinction between steps in which the heel raises after the other foot has passed (example - the man's left foot preceding a three step) and steps where it raises before the free foot passes (example - step one of a natural, or the man's right foot in a three step).

This isn't so much a rise, as the start of an upswing - it gets the hips ahead of everything else.

The reason waltz turns have rise end of one is that the hips then lead an actual rise of the body along a diagonal path, still before the much delayed passing of the left foot. The left foot really trails, and only as the swing unfolds is it finally lead to point ahead, reaching but never passing the line of the left side of the body.

All of this happens in the same direction carried through from the preceding step three - there is still no change in the direction of progression, nor any rotation of the feet, though of course there is body rotation commencing from the moment we begin to even think about takin step one. By the the time step two is placed the body will be nearing sideways, but it's only after the left foot is placed that both feet begin to turn to the book alignment of backing DC. As the body fully arrives in step three and the feet close, they turn to back LOD, but the body does not really turn any more. So for the forward half of the natural, we have a body turn between step 3 and the very early part of step 2, and we have a foot turn between late in step 2 and early in step 3.

It's also important to realize that the 3/8 turn natural is a very different step from the 1/4 turn natural, which is much closer to a closed change. In the 1/4 turn natural and the closed change, there is a redirection in the right foot during step one to the inside edge - there's a change in direction of progession such that if you started DW, step two would be taken moving to DC. In contrast, in the 3/8 natural if step 1 moves DW, step two moves DW as well. (these directions of movement should not be confused with the orientations of the feet given in the book).

I am a lady beginner (have danced whole 56-year life inncorrectly) having trouble with heel steps altogether, especially in waltz. I can barely get my foot out there in time, let alone make it a heel step. I know the heel step is fundamental, but between trying to remember the pattern, follow, stay on the correct foot, timing, etc., making a heel step in 2 1/2-inch heels just isn't happening. About the closest I come to making a heel step is just kind of sliding my foot while I'm lowered. Any suggestions on how I can get to an actual heel step?

I just had coaching from a judge at major comps and this is what he told me: Your feet stay in contact with the floor at all times. When you begin the forward step, your whole foot moves flat on the floor until its toe is a couple of inches in front of the standing toe. Swing your leg forward from the hip the length of a natural stride and let your toe rise, keeping your heel on the floor. At the same time, let your back heel rise also. Extend the front foot a little bit more and move your weight on to that foot.

You might want to think about switching to a lower heel or a practice shoe until you get the hang of it.

Hi Bee
Here's a little exercise for you.
Put on some slow waltz music (i assume you're talking slow waltz, not viennese) and simply walk down the dance floor in a stright line planting each heel in turn in time with the music. Forget the dancing, just walk. If you can do this (and i'm sure you can) you can dance heel steps.

Rha and Ellen gave some good advice on this one. Such a lot has come out of this thread.All Puzzled wanted to know. " Is the closing foot a heel". Anyway it's an interesting discusion. Phil asked is the count for the change step the same as a Natural, (I think that was it) It is. Whether you know it or not you are splitting three beats into six. I will explain this one. We are aware that (1 and are part of the same beat ) It can't be part of the next beat because it hasn't arrived yet. In between 1 and 2 there is a space . If there wasn't our world would not be here, neither would we. So we give it the name and. Whether we think about it or not it is still there . So a Closed Change or a Natural Turn is 1 and. 2 and. 3 and. We lower on the and count. Remember we are at our highest and our lowest on that beat. For the lady she must have her foot part way back on that and count. Don't try to do it from a feet together position it doesn't work. Ellen . you might have forgotten to say that the front foot is relying on the back foot to send it forward. Try going upstairs or even a slight slope without pushing from the supporting foot,

Xeno, I have a question for you. If there has to be something between 1 and 2 that you call and, doesn't there have to be something between 1 and 'and' as well?
So aren't we really dancing in 12? I mean 24? ? ? ?

Hi Anon
I'm sure i'm stating the obviouse here, but what the hell....
Of course there's something between '1' and '1 and'
Counting 1-2-3 is like counting crotchets in music. Counting 1 and 2 and 3 and... is counting quavers, and allows dancers to be more precise about when certain things happen. We could count semi-quavers and demi-semi-quavers (and so on ad infinitum, as they say), but it would be difficult and counter-productive.

Anonymous. No. You haven't got time. All you anonymouses Open the phone book and pick a name. Then we each of us won't be answering to the wrong person.

Rha. I was at a lecture many years ago given by Steven Hillier. In it he said That to lower he thinks of staying up. And to rise he thinks of staying down . This is of course the upper body.The reason for this he explained, was that if the body lowers it will beat the knees every time, that makes the bottom stick out. To rise make sure the shoulders don't lift. Raise and lower using the undercarriage.