"To dance a spin turn by stepping straight back down the line of dance as you explain "although correct" would make it imposable for me to do without finding myself to far into the center for the following reveres figure."

Huh? If you are too far to the center, you're making some other mistake - correct alignments are not the source of your problem.

Suamynona. I should have said overturn turning lock. Steven Hillier in his video" Dance Basic Three" when taking the first step into the natural turn ,his foot also faces the wall as well as his body, as Victor Veyrasset says in his vidio on the foxtrot,to make sure that you finish with the body facing the direction of the foot. Steven Hillier does not step straight back down the line of dance when dancing an overturn turning lock when this is danced diagonal to wall. What you describe as the Hiltons doing is when they under turn the natural. Dave

Suomynona. Here we go again. Is the Reverse Turn a mirror image of the Natural. I would suggest that if you are like me and can watch the screen without any difficulty through a mirror,
you might be suprised or even shocked at what you can see if you are watching a John Wood demonstration.
Lets not forget that a teacher who was teaching some twenty years ago, and dancing in a certain way. Most likely is now demonstrating and teaching in a different way.If they aren't they are not in the real world. I am interested, not what is written in the book, but what todays top dancers are doing. The book is fine as regards to footwork,and
it also will show a mirror image if the pages are held in front of a mirror for the Natural and Reverse. Can anybody see any major differences?. I can't. On this one I am with the book. In the demonstration the lady of course appears to be dancing as man. I was at a lecture given by Steven Hillier in 1986, In it he said the book is wrong It will put the lady onto her heels if the second step is taken across the LOD. I think that John Wood proves that
this is not neccessarily correct but the alignament of the fourth step for the man is to get out of the ladies way, who does go straight down the LOD. To clear a space for your partner, and she for you was unheard of a few years ago.

What utter rubbish. The book foot placements are fairly similar, yes, but the important difference between the natural and reverse is the timing of the body rotation relative to the feet - absolutely necessary or you will cancel the offset in the hold.

Suomynona. Exactly which part do you consider utter rubbish.You agree that the foot positions are simular. I will go one further and that is in the book they are exactly the same. Does the lady today, or the person on the inside of the turn take their step outside their bodyline, commonly called stepping wide. Under the body is stepping within the body line. I'll have to go to the Foxtrot Reverse Turn,to quote Anne Lewis. As I come into a nuetral position. ( that is feet parallel just passing. this is also called a collection point) She says that at this point she turns her hips towards the new alignment. If they keep going straight back with the man the lady will be pushed back resulting in a off balanced Heel Turn. In my language make room I'm turning. We are only talking inches here. On another tape I have she says that after turning the hips she doesn't particularly worry where the R.F. is placed. Did anybody in those far away days know anything about clearing a space for your partner. It would have been difficult with the very square stance that was taught in thoughs days.Something else I came across and that is the sway on the Feather Step to the ladies left is essential to keep balanced on the inside foot. Of course this is all utter rubbish isn't it ?.

"You agree that the foot positions are simular. I will go one further and that is in the book they are exactly the same."

False. The offset makes them different, as you will see if you superimpose the man's and lady's charts. But foot positions are not dancing - they are only one result of dancing. What goes on above the feet is drastically different for a natural and a reverse turn - this is the differences between just looking at the book, and understanding the implications of all the described techniques taken together.

"Does the lady today, or the person on the inside of the turn take their step outside their bodyline, commonly called stepping wide."

No, you must not step outside your body line in the swing dances. In an initial step this literally means under your body, once sway develops it means at the location of you body projected along its inclined axis.

"I'll have to go to the Foxtrot Reverse Turn,to quote Anne Lewis. As I come into a nuetral position. ( that is feet parallel just passing. this is also called a collection point) She says that at this point she turns her hips towards the new alignment. If they keep going straight back with the man the lady will be pushed back resulting in a off balanced Heel Turn."

Yes, this is called CBM, and I sure hope you aren't trying to dance a turn without that. It's a totally different thing than stepping wide - your hips turn, but your foot placement does not deviate in the way that the hip turn would imply - they are seperate.

"On another tape I have she says that after turning the hips she doesn't particularly worry where the R.F. is placed."

Of course not - because she is dancing her body properly - she does CBM (rotation) without altering the path of her progression, so her foot lands in the correct place without having to think about it. One can't really dance until this is true - again why the foot charts are a way to check that you did the right thing, but are not to be taken as instructions for what to do - they are the effect, not the cause.

"Did anybody in those far away days know anything about clearing a space for your partner."

Yes. Question is how many people today still do.

"It would have been difficult with the very square stance that was taught in thoughs days."

No. It was fine because the hip rotations were sufficient for the more staid movement of the day. If you want to create the more athletic movements of today, you have to use the body position (not foot displacements) histortically used to make space, only use more of them. Stepping out of the way just keeps the bodies square - staying in the way but making space is the true skill.

"Something else I came across and that is the sway on the Feather Step to the ladies left is essential to keep balanced on the inside foot."

Yes, because she can't really get onto the inside foot properly unless you use sway to guide the foot placement. People who swing the leg without the body to place it will misposition it, and be off balance.

"Of course this is all utter rubbish isn't it ?."

You are seeing important things, but misinterpreting them.

Suomynona. The part that is hard to understand for those that have never had it pointed out to them, is the collection point at the end of the Feather or Three step. This given a count of ( and ). The feet at this time are parallel.The count being 1 2 3 4 and). It is at this point for the lady that she turns the hips and shoulders to the new alignament. No CBM at this, stage the feet are together, passing. The question now is, in which direction does the ladies leg and foot go if this is a Reverse Turn, or if this is a Natural Turn ?. It most certainly can't be straight back can it. This is all on the tape. The same situation arises with the fourth step for the man in a Reverse, it curves slightly. John Wood demonstrates what will happen if this is driven straight back. And of course we have the fourth step of an Imputus where our technique does not alter. If this was taught in the 40's or 50's I must have been stone deaf. This incedentlly is a wonderful tape. I doubt if there will be another like it. There is a lot of talking , more like a lecture. Todays dancers seem only interested in masses of groups. So that's what they get. I think you will agree with that.

"The part that is hard to understand for those that have never had it pointed out to them, is the collection point at the end of the Feather or Three step. This given a count of ( and ). The feet at this time are parallel.The count being 1 2 3 4 and)."

Of course the feet are parallel, though you have the timing wrong. This collection will not occur on and, but closer to beat 1. And remember it's not a stopping point at all - in fact its the time you are moving fastest in the entire foxtrot, so it's really only a point from the perspective of abstract analysis.

"It is at this point for the lady that she turns the hips and shoulders to the new alignament. No CBM at this, stage the feet are together, passing."

The body turn you describe is proper, but it is this that constitutes the CBM, not something that happens afterwards.

"The question now is, in which direction does the ladies leg and foot go if this is a Reverse Turn, or if this is a Natural Turn ?. It most certainly can't be straight back can it."

It not only can be, it must be. A very slight curve to displace mady a foot width (not lenght, width), but it should feel pretty much straight back, because the foot curves so much less than the body turns.

"And of course we have the fourth step of an Imputus where our technique does not alter."

No, the impetus is a very different action because it is an intentional heel pull and not one that results passively from the swing and CBM the way the lady's heel turn does. It's easy to overlook the difference in rise timing in the written technique, but the implication of it is tremendous.

"If this was taught in the 40's or 50's I must have been stone deaf."

The way you are explaining things wasn't taught then because it was wrong, and isn't being taught today by those who know what they are doing because it is still wrong today (though it is being taught by those who don't). You see people dancing well, but misunderstand them.

Suomynona. Anne Lewis definitely teaches in the Foxtrot a collection point on an ( and ) after four. And makes a point of making this very clear Which now brings us to, in the Waltz, are some dancers playing about with the timing. For instance Reverse Turn. Stepping slightly before the beat and the body arriving on the beat. It would still be in time. Actually as I watched this tape I thought that the demonstration had been recorded silent. And a sound technician put the music in afterwards and was a bit out of synchronization with the dancers. But then I saw, and have it taped, the same couple demonstrating live. It was the same. From this I would assume that to look different to others there is some stretching of the music to get more musicality in the dancing. I wonder if there is any couple who dance a different timing in the Waltz for a sucopated Chasse after a Whisk or Open Imputus. Instead of the old faithful 1 2 and 3. Do 1 and 2 3. Or my favourite 1 2 3 and. The latter timing for the Reverse Fallaway and Slip Pivot was being taught that way in 1986. All of this is leading to Alex Moore who wrote. " It is hoped that no student will be foolish enough to think that a parrots knowledge of the contents of this book will be sufficient to satisfy an astute examiner ". I wonder what he meant by that ?.
Back to the Foxtrot. Also are you aware that there is a lot of foot shaping with todays dancers . For instance Anthony Hurley teaches the lady on the first of the Reverse which is back right foot to turn the toe inwards. Try that also on the Impetus for the man. And on a Link in the Tango for the lady.The later is taught by Richard Gleave. So there we go.

Standard timing is almost always the body instead of the feet. The one exception is that the first quick in foxtrot just happens to fall right on beat three - otherwise, you want the body on time and the feet as off time as necessary to achieve that.