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| "There is no rise on step four? So if there is no rise she can't be moving from her heal to her ball of foot and toe,neither can she have body swing ?"
There are several different applications for moving from the heel of the foot to the ball/toe.
One is to create a steep upswing. In this case, the heel will lift before the other foot has passed the standing one.
Another is to simply carry the body over the foot without rise. In this case the heel will not lift until after the moving foot has passed the standing foot, so we do not formally mention the toe. The most obvious example is the given footwork for the man's left foot on the step between a feather and a three step. More commonly though it applies any time one lowers TH to continue moving forward - we don't specify THT, because the weight does not get to the toe until after the formal end of the step.
A third it to depart a foot sideways, either because the body is changing direction or because the foot has rotated since it was placed. If one dances something approaching a pivot on step four of the spin turn, then formally the footward would be HT to accomodate the sideways departure from the foot. However if one follows the suggestions of many and dances something quite a bit less than a pivot, a true abscense of foot rise would require that the right heel is still down as the left foot passes it, and the footwork should then be written H only. |
| John. Can we have rise onto a step without foot rise. Didn't the Admistrator have some words on this very subject a few pages ago. Rise can come from the knee without coming from the foot. To do this i would say requires us to bend the knee in the first place. I was told that in dancing when we do a side step we are always on two toes eventually. |
| john. This brings up are very important part of technique. That is on any side step you will eventually be on two toes even if the book might say NFR. The weight will be split and the feet then will be closing, or crossing up behind or whatever.By the way there is no sway on the Spin, swing doesn't get a mention. But to get back to the feet apart on two toes. Any simular step you may have must be consistent with the correct technique. In other words what happens on the left should be the same as to the right otherwise there is no consistancy in the dancing.And pity the poor girl.  |
| A litle more on being on the toes on a side step. In your minds eye create these two images. Last three steps of a Reverse Turn Foxtrot. TH for man. Heel for lady. If as man I come off a flat right foot the lady will also pick up this bad habit. Imagine if you will that at the end of step four I am on my two toes, weight in the centre passing to my LF. ready to step through with the RF which completes the Feather Finish. Now imagine this coming off a flat foot. Which looks the best, and only one is correct. We have a simular thing at the end of the first step Reverse and the second step. That heel must leave the floor to a toe on that RF. As I put above , or is it below. Any time we step to the side we will be on out two toes regardles of what the footwork is on the step before. Change of direction No. all steps are down. These are some of the things that get forgotten to be mention untill a lesson with an expert who says "What the hell was that. Go back and do it again, but this time do it this way". |
| "I just got my stading leg mixed up with the free foot,but I would have thaught that was apparant,since we arn't allowed to make mistakes on this excellent website "
Everyone makes mistakes here. It's part of life.
"Bye the way,the book say's does it not, that the Lady follow her partner so her amount of turn is debatable? "
We end up using the word "turn" with a variety of meanings. In terms of dance figures, turn refers to a change of direction of travel. On that, the lady needs to follow her partner and really couldn't do anything very different anyway.
The question in the spin turn is if there is a change of orientation of the foot on step 4. There is clearly a CBM rotation of the body (and that has to match between the partners). But what about the foot? I maintain that despite what you might conclude from a trivial reading of the book, there should not be very much rotation of the feet for the lady at all, until she is arriving on step 5. The thing with foot orientation is that while it should be compatible between the partners, the consequences of inconsistency may be less obvious - couples do dance with their feet working at cross purposes and get away with it for a while. The orientation of the feet / timing of foot rotation is also a place where someone's personal habits (good or bad) are likely to overcome what they feel from their partner. |
| Suomyona. Here we are again.If the lady
does step 4 and 5 in a Spin Turn simular to a Natural Turn Then its not a Spin Turn.
I would ask what is the ladies alignment on step 5, starting with with 4 down the LOD. Where should she be backing. Is she backing LOD or not. I have two books here, one give 1/2 a turn on step 4 and the other book gives 3/8ths of a turn on 4, all with diagrams to illustrate the point. I should have put that book one is not on a corner changing from one LOD to the other. Book two is on a corner. Book one does give both alignmens .
The actuall spin nowadays can be done in the confines of a doorway. That's with the arms down. Much smaller than once upon a time.But then it is up to the individual on how they feel it should be done.
Has it ever occured to you why some dancers literally fall out of Spin Turn into 456 of a Reverse . No control at all. Just for thoes who may not understand 456 of a Reverse usually follows a Spin Turn.
So the question remains.What is the amount of turn on step 4 as the foot in place on step 5 of a normal Spin Turn Waltz International Style.
I have just had a look at a professional tape on step 4. In their demonstration the man's step on 4 of the Spin Turn is taken diagonal to the wall and the lady followed. Which will alter step 4 for the lady. Yet in the teaching part it was different. So there you go. Its not a science. If the judges like it then its OK
We do watch videos and have a larger collection between us than normal.I say we, because we are a group on my computer. The others are painfully slow at typing so I get the task of writting. We have made a point of not backing each other up. Which I think is the right way to go, but we are free to answere if a question has been asked on the same subject. It's in our constitution. Boss has arrived have to go. |
| "Here we are again.If the lady
does step 4 and 5 ioes step 4 and 5 in a Spin Turn simular to a Natural Turn Then its not a Spin Turn."
Here we are again indeed. The figure is a spin turn, emphasis on spin (step 50 not a pivot turn (step 4) which is another figure entirely.
Yes, the book's misunderstood explanation gives a pivoting action on four, and my strong advise is that you not actually try to do this, or you will never dance a real spin turn.
"I would ask what is the ladies alignment on step 5, starting with with 4 down the LOD. Where should she be backing. Is she backing LOD or not."
She is not backing anything, she is moving diagonally forward and left. Only after her left foot is placed does enough foot turn occur that the word "backing" becomes appropriate.
"The actuall spin nowadays can be done in the confines of a doorway. That's with the arms down. Much smaller than once upon a time.But then it is up to the individual on how they feel it should be done."
That is not a spin turn, but a small variation on a natural pivot turn. You can of course do any silliness you like, but in the words of dance champion Barry Fife, "that doesn't mean you'll win".
"Has it ever occured to you why some dancers literally fall out of Spin Turn into 456 of a Reverse . No control at all."
Yes, they are either off balance on the spin (perhaps as a result of trying to send the lady into backwards rather than forwards) or more likley, they simply do not know how to carry through the bottom of the swing and get the motion headed up again. Indeed, how many couples have the lady come crashing down onto step four af a natural or natural spin turn? Probably even more than crash the exit of the spin turn.
"So the question remains.What is the amount of turn on step 4 as the foot in place on step 5 of a normal Spin Turn Waltz International Style."
Extremely little.
"I have just had a look at a professional tape on step 4. In their demonstration the man's step on 4 of the Spin Turn is taken diagonal to the wall and the lady followed."
You can safely ignore this couple, since the man clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Cutting off to the side like that is a major contributing factor to the lady crashing down onto step four. The man must create a swing from the commencing alignment of the step, which is down LOD. A man who cuts off to diag wall there is one who does not know how to swing. |
| Suomynona.You wrote. I do not consider that as a high enough to create authority. Your forgetting one thing and that is these people are having lessons with the people that do the judging at Blackpool and they are so severe. You go to them for lessons pay a fair bit of money. You get the best teaching that you could possibly get anywhere. Friends of mine now stationed in London were at that time Professional State Champions and National Grand Finalists. With Michael Wentink they never got past eight bars in Samba without being stopped. Another pair I know were kept on the basics for eight weeks untill they got it right. It was worked out that it cost over $200 to learn how to whisk in the Samba correctly. Samba as we know is the hardest of all the dances to do, or do we know. It's much harder than any of the Standard dances. |
| "Suomynona.You wrote. I do not consider that as a high enough to create authority. Your forgetting one thing and that is these people are having lessons with the people that do the judging at Blackpool and they are so severe. You go to them for lessons pay a fair bit of money. You get the best teaching that you could possibly get anywhere."
No, to get the best teaching you have to go to their teachers. Have you ever played the children's game "telephone" in which is a message is whispered from one person to another, and another, until it is garbled into nonsense? If you have a chance to study with both a master teacher and one of their best students, you can see how much this is true of dance technique through only a single generation - there will be many areas where what the student says reflects an incomplete understanding of what the teacher is suggesting, even when the 'student' is the incumbent world champion.
"Samba as we know is the hardest of all the dances to do, or do we know. It's much harder than any of the Standard dances."
This apple tastes so much better than any orange! |
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