Anonymous. If we split the three beats into six. I think you will agree that inbetween 1 2 there is a gap that gap is called (and ) The (and) belongs to the beat we are leaving and not the beat which hasn't arrived yet. Think about the two ( and ) where are you at the end of the ( and ), and what is left. Anybody can work that out for themselves. Just make sure you are not at your highest on two.

"Anonymous. If we split the three beats into six. I think you will agree that inbetween 1 2 there is a gap that gap is called (and ) The (and) belongs to the beat we are leaving and not the beat which hasn't arrived yet. Think about the two ( and ) where are you at the end of the ( and ), and what is left. Anybody can work that out for themselves. Just make sure you are not at your highest on two."

That is your personal opinion, for which you will find no support in the book. It might well be right - but there is nothing written to support it.

You still have not paid attention to the fact that "Continue to rise on 2 and 3" refers specifically to STEP two and STEP three, and NOT BEAT two or BEAT three.

Because you have further defined the second half of beat 2 to include the closing of the feet, and because the book has that occuring only within the period of step 3, it is quite clear that your beats DO NOT MATCH the book's steps.

As a result of this, you can't use the book as source of authority to argue that someone else's rise is wrong.

You can only use your artistic judgement.

Anonymous. What are we on about now.You are agreeing that in between two beats there is a space. If there wasn't everything would happen at the same time and we wouldn't be here. Listen carefully. One is just a step. Then we dance. Two is just a step, then we dance on the (and) This is your swing from a compression set up at the end of one which has a count of (and ) (before the two.). As your feet arrive together the LF has most of the weight, so we rise and sway on three and lower on the (and). Alex Moore new that there are spaces betweeen the beats. If he didn't say so they are still there. If you step on one. Step on two and close on three. You are wrong because you are not using the inbetween spaces. Do you at the end of one where the left leg comes under the body, do you turn and compress. Do you use that stored energy to swing on two. Or do you do a very docile looking step two forgetting your swing

"Alex Moore new that there are spaces betweeen the beats. If he didn't say so they are still there. If you step on one. Step on two and close on three. You are wrong because you are not using the inbetween spaces."

In Alex Moore's writing it is formally specified that you finish the closing only within the time of STEP three.

You may wish to have that happen during the second half of beat two. And I won't say that you would be wrong to do so.

What I will insist on pointing out however is that this action is part of STEP 3, even if it occurs during BEAT 2.

Beats and steps are NOT THE SAME THING - you are going to keep contradicting yourself as long as you pretend that they are.

Anonymous, In both Alex Moore and Victor Silvester's books . They both give two beats to move and one beat to rise and lower.If you are going to step on One. To the side on Two. Close on Three. How come the book says. Continue to rise on three.
Commence to rise the end of one.
Continue to rise on Two and Three.
Try it . Continue to rise on three.

"Anonymous, In both Alex Moore and Victor Silvester's books . They both give two beats to move and one beat to rise and lower."

You are still confusing beats and steps.

"Continue to rise on Two and Three.
Try it . Continue to rise on three."

Those books define step three to begin when the foot is only halfway closed.

You call that part of BEAT 2.
But it is formally STEP 3.

Continue to rise on 3 means continue to rise on STEP 3. It does not mean continue to rise on BEAT 3.

It neither requires nor prohobits continuing the rise into beat three, because it is written in term of STEPS RATHER THAN BEATS.

Anonymous. Now we are getting to the crux of the matter. Three is not a step. Two (and ) is the step. Three is to complete the rise that started at the end of one.
These books do not define step three as being when the foot is halfway closed. Where did you dig that one up.
With the spaces between the beats on two ( and ) your feet are together.
Could anybody work out the time lapse between two beats at 28 bars per minute. Theres plenty of time.
Richard Gleave said that in practise they used to count aloud. When competing or demonstrating he always counted the first eight bars . But not aloud. Dance Vision 4.is the name of the tape.

"These books do not define step three as being when the foot is halfway closed. Where did you dig that one up."

And that is precisely where you are wrong - they indeed to define step two ending and step three begining at that point in the action.

I quote:

"The end of a Side Step, such as the 2nd step of a Natural Turn in the Waltz when the feet are to close on the 3rd step, is approximately when the the third step has closed half-way towards the second step."

Before that halfway point you are dancing step two - after it you are dancing step three. It is in terms of these that the rise and fall is specified - how you fit that to the music is your artistic choice.

Can i just point out 2 things:
1)Since the book doesn't specify the relationship between steps and beats, we can put the steps anywhere in the music - however..
2)All top dancers i've ever seen place their steps on the beat (i'm talking slow waltz, and basic steps like 1-2-3 natural turn, which is what the discussion is about). this would mean that steps start on 1&, 2&
If you see a dancer not planting their feet on the beats (for 1-2-3 natural turn) it looks like they're dancing off time

"1)Since the book doesn't specify the relationship between steps and beats, we can put the steps anywhere in the music - however.."

Yes

"2)All top dancers i've ever seen place their steps on the beat (i'm talking slow waltz, and basic steps like 1-2-3 natural turn, which is what the discussion is about). this would mean that steps start on 1&, 2& If you see a dancer not planting their feet on the beats (for 1-2-3 natural turn) it looks like they're dancing off time"

Because STEPS formally begin and end at when the feet pass (or for a closing step, are halfway closed), the reality is that the planting of the foot is very approximately halfway through each step. If you wish to place that squarely on the downbeats, then you should in fact be counting the actions defined for each step in a way closer to "and one", "and two", "and three".

You may find it preferable to count "one and" but if you do so, you have shifted the step count literally used by the books to specify where in the sequence each action such as rise and fall is supposed to occcur. If you shift the count in this way, you must also shift the specification of each part of the action to its modified count.