Anonymous. How do you propose to do an over turned Spin Turn to back LOD without a Pivot done correctly and exactly as it is in the book. Also let us not forget that step five is a step. If you were having lessons from somebody of any note you will not be allowed to do it any other way. Even if you do an underturned Spin Turn the technique remains the same.

"Anonymous. How do you propose to do an over turned Spin Turn to back LOD without a Pivot done correctly and exactly as it is in the book."

The same way almost every high level dancer does it - by dancing something that is a lot closer to step 4 of a natural turn than it is to a pivot.

As for the overturned part, that just shows your GROSS IGNORANCE. The overturning comes on the spin which is step 5, and it is far easier to get a powerful drive into that if you do not dance a complete pivot on step four.

Look around a bit and you will see that nobody really dances a pivot there. And even in the book, what is recommended is not quite a pivot - see again the difference in the lady's footwork between step four of the spin turn (a little less than a real pivot) and step four of the natural pivot turn (a real pivot).

"Also let us not forget that step five is a step."

Exaclty - which is part of why you don't want to dance a real pivot. If you dance through step four as a more normal step, you can take a much stronger step 5.

Anonymous.I am not interested in the ladies steps which are quite different. It is the man's Spin Turn step four to five. How can you possibly compare it to a Natural Turn.Where on earth did you dig that one up. Not from your world class teachers surely..

"Anonymous.I am not interested in the ladies steps which are quite different. It is the man's Spin Turn step four to five."

The explicit difference in the lady's steps means that the man's action will have to be different. Only a beginner would overlook that.

"How can you possibly compare it to a Natural Turn.Where on earth did you dig that one up. Not from your world class teachers surely.."

Because that is indeed what they do and teach. Try watching some videos - you will not see much of a pivot action danced on step four. Instead, you will see the foot placed pre-turned, and then the body turning as it passes over the foot. And you will see the lady swing forward onto step 5, not backwards. The result is something very much like step 4-5 of a natural turn, only with the rise delayed and and the man developing his initial pointing alignment for step 5 into a heel lead.

Get out your video collection and watch it frame by frame...

Anonymous. Is that a Spin Turn as it is in the latest technique book. No if's or buts. Is it or isn't it.

"Anonymous. Is that a Spin Turn as it is in the latest technique book. No if's or buts. Is it or isn't it."

The difference of the lady's footwork in the spin turn vs the natural pivot turn is indeed present in the latest technique book. You cannot note this and fail to realize that the spin turn as written is a little short of being a literal pivot.

As for the way champion dancers do not actually pivot their foot much (or for some any) against the floor, no that's not in the book. But it is what they do. Got into an argument with one of them about that way back, but what can you say... there's what's in the book, and then there's what is actually danced.

If you can make what is in the book work better than what people are currently winning with, more power to you. If you can't, then dance what has been widely established to work well when it count and save the experiments for a boring day in the studio.

Anonymous. We are not writting about the ladies steps.
Draw up the battle lines.
A step forward is exactly that. Facing against the LOD a step forward is down that line. Or whichever way I am facing. An alignment is the direction. The way we are being taught, which does differ from my book. Is where I am facing after the Pivot with a step forward. It is is not down the LOD. The alignment we use is the same whether it be an underturned or over turned Spin Turn. I don't think unless I do a true Pivot it would satify our teachers. The actuall pivot before the step forward is much smaller than when I first learnt.
So after the Pivot where are you facing, as you are being taught.

" The actuall pivot before the step forward is much smaller than when I first learnt. "

Exactly - on many world finalists, pivoting of the foot is for all practical purposes non-existent in a natural "pivoting" figure.

And pivoting the foot does feel like a very weak action compared to placing it turned and then turning the body over it. Maybe someone will figure out how to do a positive action while pivoting the foot, but until they do, I suspect most champions will continue to choose not to really pivot the foot much, if they even pivot it at all.

Reverse pivots may be a somewhat different story...

I'm trying to follow this dicsussion because i'm hoping to learn something about pivots.But i'm becoming more and more confused
I'm backng the LOD and am about to step back onto my left foot to do a pivot. How can i "place it turned?" and then turn over it? Not possible.There's 18O degree turn before my next step.
""""Maybe someone will figure out how to do a positive action while pivoting the foot""""" Does turning with my partner count as a positive action?
Can someone volunteer to decribe the foot and body actions - just for the man to start with - in a natural pivot?

"I'm backng the LOD and am about to step back onto my left foot to do a pivot. How can i "place it turned?" and then turn over it? Not possible.There's 18O degree turn before my next step."

If you watch carefully, you will see a lot of world champs do it about like this:

Turn in the right foot by about 45 degrees (approximately) while placing the back step. Then turn the body 135 degrees as you dance off that foot, without turning the foot until after your weight has left it.