Natural Turn in Waltz. Step right foot forward turning body to the right.
Feather. Right foot forward turning body slightly to the right.
Quickstep Right foot forward
turning body to the right.
Foxtrot Reverse Step left foot
turning body to the left.
Shall we now go to page 9 and see what a step forward is. It was all written by the same person you know.
Take the CBM out and what is left. Step right foot forward. Or step left foor forward..
Nothing in the whole book says any different.

"Natural Turn in Waltz. Step right foot forward turning body to the right.
Feather. Right foot forward turning body slightly to the right.
Quickstep Right foot forward
turning body to the right.
Foxtrot Reverse Step left foot
turning body to the left."

Where are all the details about the degree of straightness of the knee, the swing, the rise, the timing of the action? You forgot those. If you'd managed to dig them up and include them, you'd see how different all of these steps are.

But of course you won't be able to find them, because the book does not explicitly spell out those details, instead, you must implicitly figure them out from the overall shape of the figures.

"Shall we now go to page 9 and see what a step forward is."

BUT THAT IS NOT THE SAME SORT OF STEP FORWARDS!

The problem is that you are trying to apply what was written about one situation to a variety of DRASTICALLY DIFFFERENT SITUATONS.

"Nothing in the whole book says any different."

WRONG. See all the comments on the difference in rise between the dances. See all the explicit listings of different rise and fall for various figures within each dance.

Face the fact - there are numerous different forms of forward heel lead, and you cannot blindly assume that the details of one will apply to another, without making a fool of yourself.

"Please quote what the technique book says about the extent of the stride for the following SPECIFIC SITUATIONS. Don't try to pass off OTHER SITUATIONS, quote EXACTLY WAHT IT SAYS ABOUT THESE:

1) step one of a waltz natural

2) step one of a feather

3) step one of a quick open reverse

4) step one of a foxtrot reverse"

Since you ignored the ACTUAL QUESTION, I'm going to have to ask it again.

Quote exactly what the technique book says about the EXTENT OF THE STRIDE in each of the four above figures. Don't tell us they are forward heel leads, everyone knows that.

QUOTE EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THE STRIDE IN EACH CASE.

(or stop pretending that it says anything about it)

You had better enlighten me. I can see absolutely no difference in a first step of a Waltz compared to the first step of the Foxtrot as it is written on page 9.
At end of the first step we are going to commence to rise.
On the other at the end of the first step we are going to rise.
How we get to the end of the first step. in both cases . You might tell me what your difference is.
In both cases we have already lowered at the end of the last step. So be it Waltz or Foxtrot we don't lower onto the first step because we are already down and we don't double lower.
So now with your infinite wisdom what difference to the step can there possibly be.
If you wish to discuss the next step , step two by all means do. But dont try to mix the rise and fall of the two dances with each other. Lets stick to one step forward on the heel as it is written on page 9. which is the same in the two dances.And is no different in the Quickstep or the V.Waltz . The only difference is the speed and the length of the step depending on the music being played. Lets hear it one step forward on the heel.

"You had better enlighten me. I can see absolutely no difference in a first step of a Waltz compared to the first step of the Foxtrot as it is written on page 9.
At end of the first step we are going to commence to rise.
On the other at the end of the first step we are going to rise.

"How we get to the end of the first step. in both cases . You might tell me what your difference is."

The most obvious difference would be in the fall, and especially the rise. While in the extreme simplification in the figure charts none of this occurs during hte middle of step one, the reality is that rise and fall are a smoothly blended process throughout the step. Basically there is a vertical curve through space, and each of a waltz natural, a feather, and a heel turn would have a DIFFERENT curve. At a minimum, once the body starts getting closer to the front foot again, the difference should be pretty obvious. And the book quite explicitly comments on that - see the bracing of the leg comment in the section where it discusses the difference in rise between dances. In the waltz turn action, your arriving knee will continue to soften as you approach it, in the foxtrot not so much, especially in the heel turn where the softening is minimal. And this is all well underway long before the end of the step!

"In both cases we have already lowered at the end of the last step. So be it Waltz or Foxtrot we don't lower onto the first step because we are already down and we don't double lower."

Actually, you must continue to lower if you wish to achieve the smooth movements of an advanced dancer. Now, it's true beginners are wisely cautioned against this double lowering, which is to say, against lowering onto step one. But you do - at least if aiming for championship movement - do have to loose quite a bit more altitude during the first half of step one. If you're going to get your legs fully straight while taking a large step, you're going to have to lower you center a TON - that's basic trigonometry. And the nature of that loss of altitude of course is going to be different for different sorts of figues you could be coming out of, and then it must blend smoothly (with no bumps, jerks, or pauses or hesitations) into the unique characteristic rise of hte figure you are now dancing.

Suffice to say there is a heck of a lot more instruction about the details of rise and fall in the book, than is contained in the figure charts! You have to read, AND ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND, the entire book before this is going to make sense to you.

"Lets stick to one step forward on the heel as it is written on page 9. which is the same in the two dances."

As I just pointed out, no it isn't.

You can continue lowering as much as you like before the step is taken. This doesn't contradict the steps as on page 9. of Alex Moore's book.
You still have not given me the pages or a page which differs to Alex.
Any loss of altitude is by the length of the step alone. Think about . You have gone as low as is possible before the step is taken. Who in their right mind would want to go any lower on the one step forward which is a heel lead. I do believe the dip you are trying to teach actually takes place between three and the beginning of one, not on one itself. Because we are on our way up.Which is confirmed by Steven Hillier who says Think of a child on a swing with us pushing. At the bottom of the swing there is a point where we are still pushing but the swing is on his way up. Just go back and check that book again. And give me that page number

"I do believe the dip you are trying to teach actually takes place between three and the beginning of one, not on one itself."

And that is your mistake.

There is substantially loss of altitude between the time when the feet are together at the START of step 1, and the time when they are furtherst apart at the middle.

You then have to gain that altitude back again during the second part of step one, and it is there that each sort of heel lead will become obviously different. For a heel turn, the arriving leg stays basically straight as you move onto it (we haven't reached the end of the step yet, we are just moving our body onto the foot). For a waltz turn, the knee bends as we move towards it.

I don't have the book with me at the moment, but if you read the discussion of rise and fall there, it talks about this different in the action as we move onto a foot. Look for a phrase something like .

sorry, that got cut off, look for something like 'bracing of the legs' in the books discussion of rise and fall between the various dances.

This difference becomes obvious as the body moves onto the receiving foot - which is to say, long before the end of the step.

Hi Quickstep
I'm not quite sure of the point of this discussion. However, to comment on some things:
1)PLEASE don't take Alex Moore's book as the 'bible' (I mean no disrespect at all to christians here). It was never meant to cover advanced dancing techniques. It could not possibly do this anyway. It is a good start with good basics
Just 1 example - Look at the waltz natural turn - that is not how advanced dancers do it.
I keep Alex Moore's book at the side of the bed (i know - sad, isn't it? ) but i rely on my coach to tell me the real story.
2) Leg and foot action allows the body to move and achieve the flight required for the different dances. Slow waltz is an undulating, turning dance. Foxtrot is a more linear, free flowing dance. The body flight characteristics are different. THis MUST be reflected in the leg and foot action - probably in subtle ways of course.
If i do an exact waltz step 1 in my foxtrot, the lead in to step 2 will be a waltz lead-in, and eventually, my foxtrot will look like a waltz.
Maybe the way the heel strikes the floor on step 1 is similar, but a lot else must be different
3)I thought on waltz step 2 we "continue to rise" and we're up on 3. In foxtrot we rise on 2 and stay up on 3 (feather step this is). Maybe i'm wrong, i'll check
4) If you go from a change step into a natural turn in waltz, you're starting the natural turn from a closed feet position. THere is no corresponding position for the foxtrot. So there must be a difference in this first step.

But what is all this about?? What's the hidden agenda here?

Phil. The arguement as usual got way off from how it started. I quoted from the Technique book that there is no difference between a step in the Waltz and a step in the Foxtrot. And I wrote that a p turned upside down is a d. In the book there is not a different technique for the actuall steps.
This is where the difference lays, It is what happens after the foot is in place , if this is a Waltz on the and count between the two beats. The way the moving foot is brought under the body in both dances. I'll say again the way the moving foot is placed into a balanced position under the body. This I was told. A step is just a step. It is inbetween the steps where we dance. After the step is taken whether we bend the knee more or less has nothing to do with it. It becomes a different story. If you were asked from a feet together position to take one driving step forward. Would you ask is this a Waltz a Foxtrot or a Quickstep because I need to do each one differently. But to go back to the beginning. There is no visible difference on the prep step and the first or second or the step into the Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot for the lady who is extending to the toe which then becomes a ball. The third step has CBMP. Who would like to say that those steps do not all have the same technique.