ALL ballroom music ?-- you have obviously not listened to Mambo/ salsa.
and some boleros and chas

( I,m not talking the " T for 2", masquerading as latin ).

I have a fairly fundamental objection to your rather dogmatic suggestion that "music for dancing" is arranged in anything like so structured a way.

It just isn't. It may be that music arrangements specifically chosen for dancesport have a predictable pattern of intro and phrasing: otherwise it would be very difficult for the contestants to have prepared any suitable amalgamations and routines in advance when they don't know what music will be played. But even in dancesport, it is rare to find music that has been specially written, or even arranged that way: it's just that the arrangements that fall into that convenient pattern are the ones tat are chosen for use.

"Music for dancing" is a very much wider collection of live music and recordings, spanning many decades, and dancers can, and will, adapt themselves to all sorts of music. Even in the field of "competition", look at the variety of music used in popular series such as DWTS & SCD. It is not uncommon to giggle at the choices, and marvel at the ingenuity of the choreography. The results are not always very successful, however.

Just about the only place that I would agree with your theory is in the peculiar world of sequence dancing. There you will find, almost invariably, a 4 bar intro and 16 bar sequences (very often 8 + 8). In any other context, a good dancer can dance to almost anything with something approaching strict tempo, and reasonable speed. A good leader with a musical ear will instinctively choose amalgamations that are going to work. Those less blessed can learn, to some extent, what will and won't fit, and a third category (who I accept are almost always social dancers), won't know or care what we are on about - but they're having a lovely time.

The other reason that I would resist your suggestion is to restate a point that I made a day or two ago, which was that the technique books are largely unconcerned as to what will fit where, and how a figure should fit in to the natural rhythm of the music. The concern to package everything up so that it fits a formula is, in the wider dance context, a paper tiger, although it suits the rather small world of dancesport (and dare I say, because many of the leaders actually couldn't adapt their routines to the musical requirements of the dance on the day - much as we social dancers have to adapt what we are doing, not just for the music, but for the couple in front of us who are making no progression, and the couple behind us, who are practising for a comp and whizzing around the floor as though it were empty).

CliveHarrison. You probably don't realize that you have more than likely been dancing in the Foxtrot an eight Bar routine to eight bars of music without knowing it. I refere to a Feather Step Reverse Turn Three Step Open Imputus Turn and a Reverse Weave. That is an eight bars routine to one phrase of eight bars of music. On a disk there will be 64 bars of music
( could be more )which is eight bar phrased which equals eight and is refered to as eight bar phrased.
If you go to shopping on this site. Then music store. Have a look at Album 9 and you will see Foxtrot beats per minute 116. To come in line with the rest of the world ,who deal in bars per minute , simply divide by four. Thats 29BPM.
I have before me a disk by Hisao Sudou . Among the different dances we have a Waltz " Sherezade " Listed is 30BPM and it also gives how long the track goes for.
In a competition the most time you will get on the floor is 1 min 30 sec before the music stops. Except at Blackpool the orchestra will most likely go for 2 min 30 sec or more.
By now you will realize that dance music is an orderly thing. Just any old disk wont do. It needs to be a certain amount of bars or beats per minute and has to be eight bar phrased.
Which means any music can be played and I know my routines will fit that music.
Can you imagine what it would be like if a disk was played where the phrasing varied from 5 to 7 then 8. and with a 3 bar introduction.
All of the above you can apply to Latin as well.
Dancing is an art. The music danced to is a Science. Very orderly.

"With four beats in either Tempo regardless of which is being played all I need to know is One will have a strong first beat, a weaker second, a strong third not as strong as the first, and a weaker fourth beat if this is 4/4. The dancer who's routines are composed this way does not have to change if he finds the music is not 4/4."

This same pattern of stresses will occur regardless if the notation is 2/4 or 4/4, because it is a natural property of the MUSIC and not of the notation system.

No. There is no weaker third beat in "proper" 2/4 tango music. There is just STRONG weak STRONG weak. 2/4 and 4/4 cannot be reconciled if you are going to change your choreography to suit the distinctive, but uncharacteristic, rhythm of 4/4 music in tango.

We can at least agree that it's got nothing to do with notation, and everything to do with the music.

CliveHarrison. My teachers who are ranked top twenty in the world treat all Tangos as 4/4. If they can do it so can I.
But for those who wonder how it was in the beginning Page 228 Alex Moore. Time 2/4. Two beats in a bar. Both the 1st and 2nd beats are accentuated. If you are passing an examination this is the answere you must give untill the technique book is brought up to date.

I don't care if your teacher is the current world champion, and married to the Queen of Sheba, I still know that the rhythmic patterns of 2/4 & 4/4 are not interchangeable; that the technique books (all of them) consider both of the only two beats in the bar to be equally stressed (which is a musical nonsense); and that the fashion is to dance tango to 4/4 music.

Have a good Christmas (everyone).

Serendipidy,

My teacher was ranked #2 in the world. I win.



Jonathan

CliveHarrison. Reading your thread brought to mind a couple of things. Where I live very rarely would you see a competition dancer at a Social Dance.
We have adequate training nights in our three styles of dancing and the Competition and the Social don't mix. At a Social Dance it would be near impossible to do any of the dances in the Standard style without stop starting. And any couple who as you say whizzing around the floor would just make a nuisance of themself.
Latin is different. At a Social type dance the steps , use of the hips, and the content need not be modified. Even then it would only be an accident for a Latin couple to even be there. There are enough other places who cater for them and the Standard Dancers.

Firmly tongue-in-cheek, I would say that if a competitive couple found it impossible to do any of the standard dances at a social dance, then they have not actually learned to dance, but merely to repeat sequences of steps which they have practised on an empty floor. For me, that isn't dancing, it is indulging in the luxury of being able to present your most advanced technique, or most advanced figures (and preferably both), without the inconveniences and limitations of being one of a hundred dancers on a busy floor.

Dancing is about leading and following, floorcraft, and the pleasure of one's partner's company. It is also about technique, expression and the appropriate selection of figures (but choreography is really limited to the demonstration/competition scene). Dancesport uses a sub-set of those skills, with some of them developed more highly, but at the expense of others. I would say (and still firmly tongue-in-cheek) that the "compleat" dancer would be as comfortable on a social floor as anywhere else, and if they really did have to keep stopping and starting, then they really should have stayed at home, and had a night in to re-read Alex Moore.

At our social dancing club, one couple regularly attend who are, principally, competitive dancers. They also happen to be very good (and the two are not the same thing at all). On a busy floor, they enjoy the quite different challenge of dancing within the limitations of those figures that can be executed in the available space, without undue inconvenience to themselves or to anyone else, and they will also regularly partner other, less experienced dancers too. They usually confine themselves to basic figures, executed with the sort of style and expression which means that they can be spotted from the other side of a busy floor instantly: everyone's eyes are drawn to them, because their dancing is so attractive. Nothing stops ANY social dancer from doing that!

The two groups are, in reality, chalk and cheese. Most often, the social dancers are content with a very modest standard, and being content, they are just enjoying themselves; while the competitors are striving for improvement, and pushing the boundaries of their own dancing all the time. Mostly they fail: only one couple win each comp., and lots of dancers are eliminated in the first round.

There is always enough room to "perform" a stylish closed change, natural turn, closed change, reverse turn, whisk and chasse routine in standard waltz on a busy floor, and anyone who couldn't do it is kidding themselves that they are a dancer - even if they have a shelf full of trophies and are being coached by someone who could!

As for the non-travelling Latin dances - things are much more even as between the two styles, which are more or less interchangeable between the competition and social dance floor. Probably the only adjustment needed is for arm extensions to be predominantly upward socially, rather than outward (we don't want to knock anyone's teeth out), and then everything is fine. Samba is not usually so popular on the social floor, so there is usually more room to move, but we might have to be ready to make adjustments, but nothing major; and of course, paso doble is hardly danced socially at all, needing as it does, the choreographed approach to the telling of its story.