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+ View Older Messages

Re: Lead and Follow in Standard and Latin
Posted by pivotingfool
12/24/2009  3:13:00 PM
Jean,

To be fair, we are talking about two different things.

A social dancer must learn to lead or follow.

However, a competitive sport dancer is dancing for a judge. These folks must do a routine, and by memorizing their own part, they can put on a better show.

Most good social dancers could not win many competitions, and most good competitive dancers can not navagate a crowded social dance floor.

I give the competitors great respect for what they do. The difference is that they do not give anyone else any respect for what others do.

If you are not doing it their way, you are doing it wrong.

Some of us want to learn how to converse with our partner with good leads. (And good following.)

Others wish to compete. Still others have various reasons for dancing. (Things like exercising ones mind, (and or body),-- or maybe just having something to do with their spouses.

Personally, I think every dance form helps promote every other dance form.

Others think there is only room for their dance form.


Michael
Re: Lead and Follow in Standard and Latin
Posted by Clary
12/24/2009  8:14:00 PM
pivotingfool
you wrote:
"and most good competitive dancers can not navagate a crowded social dance floor."
I guess you haven't actually seen any really good competitive couples on a crowded social floor. I've seen plenty of them over the years - and they are beautiful to watch on a crowded social floor, and no, they don't do their so-called "competition routines" on the social floor; they improvise as space and music dictates.
But, perhaps you just live in area where the really good competitive dancers show up.
Re: Lead and Follow in Standard and Latin
Posted by pivotingfool
12/25/2009  5:34:00 AM
Clary,

When you change, "Most good", to "Really Good", you do change the equasion.

I agree that many, "Really Good competitive dancers", might be able to navigate a crowded dance floor.

The added "Very", changes the word "Good", to "Outstanding".

However, if you have not also seen some instructors/coachs who run over anyone who happens to get in the way of them doing their amalgamations, you must not be looking very hard.

Most of the competitors I have seen seldom get all the way around the room. They either stop, and go back to where they started, or they stop and fight about who was wrong. (That is if htey do not stop to glare at a new dancer who had the nerve to be in their way.)

I still say that a good social dancer is far better at leading a woman around a crowded dance floor. (Than a good competitor.)

P. F.

PS You also changed the word, "most" to "any". That also changes the meaning of the sentence.
Re: Lead and Follow in Standard and Latin
Posted by JonMcWhite
12/25/2009  4:39:00 PM
As an older couple dancing for almost 6 years, the last three including some competition, I would like to share our experience. We social dance as well which includes salsa, merengue, WC swing, and some American Smooth and Rhythm, but our competitive choices are Latin and Standard. Socially all of it is lead and follow and my wife is showered with praise for her ability to follow almost anything. Granted she cannot always do every step if she hasn't learned it before. I have also been told I have a good lead. That is not a STRONG lead, jerking my partner around the floor, but changing weight, direction, turn (CBM) at the appropriate time so my partner can respond correctly.

As a lead I find the sequence to be learn the elements of motion both Latin and Standard, learn the step and how the elements are applied, learn how they affect my partner and learn how it fits into what step I did before and what follows.

In Latin, a lot of what we do is a routine, but I feel better having shorter patterns and sequences with a plan of how they should go together, instead of an immutable routine that if cut off or run into I must almost restart to recover. Then I can restart a sequence and mix and match as needed. This is still more of a goal and I realize especially with Paso Doble the whole routine will be choreographed. The importance of connection cannot be overstated, the give and take of energy, momentum, direction and timing through a single handhold is a lifetime work-in-progress.

In Standard however, I truly have learned lead and follow and yes there are still sequences that are planned to show the judges the best. However many options can still remain, as at a certain point I can do "any reverse figure" or "any natural figure." I am much more comfortable dancing standard on a crowded floor because I know I have options and in closed position, I am always able to lead.

I see a big problem with Smooth and Rhythm because all the open work, if agreed to between partners, becomes very hard to change and lead something different. I see more than a few gentlemen leading patterns they have learned with their teachers and insisting on finishing them even though running their partner into another couple.

I want to be able to lead any lady but partners that don't understand or sense how connection works cannot be led beyond a certain level. A lead also cannot expect to lead a good dancer to do steps beyond his level. My wife describes good leads as trying more complex leads and steps until/unless she shows she doesn't know that. In a social setting, a gentleman shouldn't really teach on the floor. When he discovers the partners limits, he needs to stay within them and give her the best dance possible. As should be remembered, the man shows the lady off, he should never show her up.

Someone mentioned gentlemen in salsa, leading multiple partners through complex sequences effortlessly. My wife is from Puerto Rico and some of the dancers she knew danced from being 3-5 years old. They have a wonderful feel how different steps fit together and can vary the sequences at will. That is something that is very difficult to teach, and sometimes shows an inborn talent that few others can emulate. We are all on a strange and wonderful journey, I hope we don't get stuck arguing semantics.

Jon
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