CynOp,

I enjoyed that response.

My background was music where there are two kinds of teachers.

You go to a teacher to get started and learn to play the notes. Once you can do that you move on to a "finisher" who polishes what you do and turns it into music.

It's important to start with the right teacher so that by the time you get to a finisher you aren't so filled with bad habits it takes years to correct.

In my own experience I was studying with an expensive teacher and department head at music school. I was at a party with the general manager of the opera when he commented that one teacher in town had ruined more voices than any other. I asked some of the professionals in town, got the low down, switched to a teacher with a reputation as a finisher and within a year went from chorus to principal roles.

You can ask around in dance too but another way is to get ahold of results from local competitions. Look at all the levels and find out which local teachers are placing the most people in the finals. Ignore the sniping and go to those teachers.

Just remember, a really good teacher can make a difference but not everyone can be Wayne Gretzky, Mia Hamm or Michael Jordan but they aren't the only ones in the leagues.

OB

>At the Worlds, he says all the finalists >have perfect technique so all you have to >do is fixate on who is interpreting the >music best.

He must be blind. Even an armchair amateur can notice substantial differences in accuracy, even at that level. Mostly it's about what compromises someone is willing to make (which someone else is able to avoid) in order to try to keep up. of course some of those compromises have become so popular that they may no longer be considered imperfections, which is a pretty sad statement on the overall quality of dancing today.

Anon,

Then I gather you'd have no objection to amateurs judging any competition you're entered in.

What he's saying is that at those elite levels you focus on artistry over technique. The 6 last couples don't need to be evaluated on technique.

Yes, he can decide instantaneously if one person's technique stands out but what he wants to judge is dance.

Even an armchair amateur can notice substantial differences in accuracy, even at that level.

Not even worthy of comment.

OB

"What he's saying is that at those elite levels you focus on artistry over technique. The 6 last couples don't need to be evaluated on technique."

Really? Why is an error any more excusable on a blackpool finalist than on a beginner? Wrong technique (something that inhibits accomplishing your artistic goal) is still wrong technique.

Also, in selecting teachers, I think it's better not to worry too much about whose students are winning local competitions - local competitions have local judging panels with at most a few guests, so on the whole are often not looking for quite the same things a more prestigous panel would be. Notice how poorly american amateur couples do at blackpool? It's not for lack of trying - it's because they are training in accordance with local expectations of artistry and showmanship rather than towards the high technical standard that the sharp eyes on the blackpool panel want to see.

I am thrilled that my fustration has prompted such great conversations here.

I have thought hard on some of the responses.... The worst, or who knows maybe the best, was the response from Laura....

Laura suggested that perhaps we just do not have the natural ability to dance but suggested on how to improve, perhaps ballet or other avenues.... No big shock here Laura, you can only score last so many times before you come to terms with this statement. I have thought this often Laura..

After sharing my feelings with one of our coaches, we have now developed technique exercises that we work on each session with our coach to improve our basics.... If we need to start again with toe releases ect...so lets do it... I just love dance to much to accept this is beyond our ability and walk away...I just cant do it. It is just to much my life to dance. Maybe we will never rise above all of this, but I just cant walk away. Often, no very often, when we compete members of the audience, strangers, seek us out to tell us how much they enjoyed our dancing.. What they see is love of dancing....yet we do die in the judging process..

As far as grooming, we pay special attention to our apperance.... This last comp my new Dore gown was fit to my body shape, skin tone... My hair and make up well thought out.... Yes, we each carry about 20LBS to many, but design our costumes to our shapes....

Many of the later comments/posts was a bit above me... At my level I guess I do not understand...

After all is said and done, I do not think we will be ready to compete any time in the near future, althought we will not give up on the goal altogether. Don't have any answers yet or profound revulations(sp). All I do know is that I just cannot accept this is over for us...We just love dance to much.

Anon,

Good response.

Just thought I'd let you know though my friend, teacher and 7 times world's "blind" judge (LOL! I often tell him he's blind too) is a fellow of ISTD and has judged Donnie Burns and Gaynor Fairweather, Schiavo & Arzenton, the Hiltons, etc. at Blackpool. Though he lives in Canada now he is from there originally.

He arrived in Victoria today on his way home from Malaysia where he's been examining the last month. We took his workshops after which he had dinner in our home.

He reiterated that,"When the last six couples are on the floor the last thing you look at is their feet (meaning technique). At that level it's all about artistry, charisma and interpretation of the music." If they didn't have the technique they wouldn't be there.

Obviously a technical flaw is worthy of judgement. But if they had consistent technical flaws they'd have never made the finals. However, the judging panel looks at total performance and a single error should not be the basis of determining a champion.

My opinion varies on the teachers though. My experience, mostly from music I admit, is that word gets out who the better teachers are. I know for a fact classical music students evaluate teachers based on who is winning competitions. The better students then gravitate to those teachers with winning students. Advanced dance students gravitate to teachers with reputations too.

OB

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to consider that you don't have to look at feet to judge technique.

With beginners, you look for specific details in the feet and the like because you are looking for early signs of skills that aren't yet so critical to the overall success of the dancing - you are looking to see that people are developing skills for the future.

With top-level pros, you don't have to look at the feet, because you can see the quality of their technique in the overall quality of their dancing. They are all dancing at the limits their technique can support - so those with inferior technique end up with inferior dancing (either they can't do as much, or what they do looks forced while another couple looks natural). I could see how someone could fail to distinguish the quality of artistic impulse from the mastery of enabling skills since they are so intertwined, but I think it does the dance community a dis-service to pretend it's all about artistry when in fact no one can afford to drop the focus on technique.

And there really are world-class couples with inferior technique relative to their competition. For me, that's actually a sign of hope, an indication that opportunities are ripe for the plucking if you take care to get the details right.

I think we're actually agreeing.

The way he looks at it it was the high level of technique that got the last 6 couples to the floor.

He always tells me the finals at the Worlds/Blackpool are the easiest to judge.

He says the lower levels are tougher because you quickly know who the best and weakest dancers on the floor are during any heat but then you have scant seconds to be impressed by those in the middle. Here there's a fixation on technique.

There's also familiarity in the championship as the judges are usually aware of any particular couples flaws having seen them dance often (that doesn't mean they are pre judged). That's not the case in the lower levels.

It looks to me like a switch of focus:

In the lower levels they look for what's wrong while in the championship they're looking for what is good.

OB

Jan; I agree with most of the posts regarding your concerns. The overriding factor here is that you need a change and I mean radical. First after re agreeing to leave your egos at the front door, you start with a new coach. Right away !! The new coach must be a task master and demand things from you that you never thought possible. Second he/she must be as blunt as possible almost to the point of embarassment. Second, spend hours no, days in front of a mirror with the coach perfecting your new look. The new look should have a royal touch (I'm the queen/king here look at me and bow down to my radiance!!). Totally different costuming !! Radical new colors for you and your husband. Lastly, humility and prayer OFF the floor helps that different person ON the floor accept what is given you be it first or last.Go get em!!!. Amen Owen

Was plesantly surprised to see this post rise to the top again....

No, we have not changed coaches as I feel that we have some of the best... What however we did lack was an honest conversation as to what our expectations were from our coaches. It was almost like we had to give permission to our coach to train us in the way we needed. Our training has progressed well... We are now preparing for a USABDA in NJ, and ready to tackle it again.

This last month before this comp, we our in coaching sessions four days a week.... So, this is a hobby!!!

I do appreciate all the advise, but I guess in the end, we know our abilities, our drives and most important our confidence in our coaches... I think we are doing OK....

Will keep you posted on our scores in NJ

Jan