Nobody seemed interested in answering the question. If we do a Spin Turn in the Quickstep to be followed by a Progressive Chasse to the center for a Reverse movement. On what alignment do we finish the Spin Turn prior to the Chasse to the Center. The answer is in the question. The Progresive Chasse has a quarter of a turn not a half a turn. Unless you want to make it hard for your partner. So the finishing alignment is ?

You appear to have a sever confusion between the conditions at the initation of an action and at the conclusion. The difference that you find surprising are key to a solid initiation, but they do not necessary persist to the conclusion.

"Anonymous. Have you had a look at the Learning Center, with the overhead shots. Please don't tell me that the lady on a heel turn, Double Reverse or not. You would have her turning the hips without the top."

At the start of the action she should be, yes. But you will probably not see that here as they make the mistake of curving the path of movement - something the classic texts explicitly warn against. This completely changes the method of CBM away from the traditional technique to something different.

"Are you turning into step one or at the end of step one."

Both. Hips turn into, top turns at the end of.

"I think if you are not careful you would lose contact your partner."

No, this is precisely what enables a clean hold throught the figure. If you turn your top into step 1 you shove your partner off track. If you neglect to turn your hips into step 1, you have not lead any CBM...

"And this is the acid test, turning with two straight spines or two twisted. Which is it."

Both. Early in the action it is with two twisted bodies (as has been pointed out, it is more other body parts rotating different amounts around the spine than the spine twisting) later in the turn the hips and shoulders may align, then may differentiate again by the end, depending on the type of ending.

But the most obvious example of where a different hip and should alignment is needed is in promenade. There's a clip somewhere on this website showing 90 degree of difference between shoulders and feet. I find that extreme, but they manage it - and a healthy chunk of that difference is between hips and shoudlers. Personally, I prefer to move digonally across my feet, which means that my foot to shoudler difference is much less, and my shoulders are more closely aligned with me hips. But if as many you allow your hips to turn out on the step through (a mistake, most figures actually call for CBM rotation towards the partner there) then you will have a substantial hip-shoulder difference in promenade.

"Lets remember you are still under the opinion that on a Lock Step the hip goes without the top."

Yes, that is the proper and nececessary commencement of a backwards partner outside movement. You can deny it all you want, but it won't change basic facts of the human body and dance hold. - it is that isolated diagonal pull back of the right hip relative to the rest of the body which gives the partner space to come forward. Leave it out if you want... you are the one who will look like an off balance fool...

It would be interesting to see a man trying to do a fallaway reverse turn without twisting the spine at all. The secret is to keep the shoulder alignment while the hips rotate to allow the man to place his left foot behind (in fallaway position). Wish we could post video clips - would be easier to explain the points.
When i started dancing i didn't use much upper body rotation and i was told i looked stiff. By the way, the 'secret' isn't my own invention - it was given by an ex world champion who of course demonstrated it perfectly in a lecture. Coming out in promenade is another obvious example. The man's leg has to come through for step one - how is this done without destroying the upper body alignment unless the hips royate under the shoulders. The lamp on a table analogy is not a valid analogy. Ever see a tennis player trying to play without twisting? They don't get thrown 'out of alignment' The twisting gives power. dancing is different of course, but the principle of using human anatomy to its optimum still applies.

"It would be interesting to see a man trying to do a fallaway reverse turn without twisting the spine at all. The secret is to keep the shoulder alignment while the hips rotate to allow the man to place his left foot behind (in fallaway position)."

In actuality, such an across in CBMP position should not require hip rotation (in fact if you rotate your hips there you probably fail to achieve CBMP) In practice, there is a strong urge to turn the hips when taking that step, but of course you cannot afford to turn the top. If you can learn to take the step without hip rotation you do not need so much stretch there. But try to find an example of someone, even someone who teaches this avoiding such a hip rotation when it counts.

"When i started dancing i didn't use much upper body rotation and i was told i looked stiff. By the way, the 'secret' isn't my own invention - it was given by an ex world champion who of course demonstrated it perfectly in a lecture."

Yes. But keep in mind that when all the mechanisms fall into place, it's more useful for the rotary actions (CBM) than the ones than the linear ones which do not feature rotation (CBMP). In fact that it was mentioned at all in this thread is an oddity - someone apparently likes to toss in all the silly ideas they've heard even if not applicable to the subject of discussion.

"Coming out in promenade is another obvious example. The man's leg has to come through for step one - how is this done without destroying the upper body alignment unless the hips royate under the shoulders."

Look up those steps through in promenade and you will see that even in the absence of turn the man usually has CBM rotation there - which would turn his hips the other way, more closed to the lady. Many will actually rotate the hips out, but that is a deviation from the requested technique - it's anti-CBM rather than CBM. Across in CBMP is ulitmately a linear action not a turning out one - my guess is that the CBM request is there not to accomplish rotation in, but to counteract the instinct to rotate out.

"The lamp on a table analogy is not a valid analogy. Ever see a tennis player trying to play without twisting? They don't get thrown 'out of alignment' The twisting gives power. dancing is different of course, but the principle of using human anatomy to its optimum still applies."

It applies even more so... tennis isn't played in close hold with another body after all.

I don't know why i did this, but i went to the photo gallery at the UK dancesport site http://www.dancesport.uk.com/index.htm

There i found countless examples of top dancers with their hips out of - and in- line with their shoulders. The bad boys!

Phil. Has it entered your head that in a photo the couple may not have completed their movement. Going to Latin. I wanted a photo of a couple doing a New York to show a young lady what it should look like. I found several where the New York wasn't completed. None of them would do.

Phil. Would you be suprised to know that the Fallaway technique among the also ran is not done correctly. This I am told by a person who I can say is much higher up the professional ladder than most of you have met or have only met on a tape. Most turn into Fallaway too late. The second step should have a strong shaping of the foot ( toe turned in ) And the spine is not twisted. This shaping of the foot is on many other steps. If you have a teaching tape of Markus Hilton and watch the feet, another world will open to you. If you are like me, the above mentioned foot position was so foreign it took a while to accomplish. In other words the poor old leg didn't want to obey.Try it with partner.

to quickstep and phil.
could you please not deviate from the original topic posted. If required please start a new thread.

Anonymous. The sensible one.
Thank goodness we have somebody out there who knows what they are on about.If in the beginning, as a beginner, a pupil was told not to turn into the Basic Steps, but to turn at the end of. Maybe this argument might not be on the table. I know what I was taught as a beginner. For a Heel Turn Reverse Turn Foxtrot. We were told that at the end of the first step we were told to still be facing diag to wall and not to try to turn the step half way through the step. Boys and girls both had this to do, because there were many steps which later has the same technique.As you can see I got a bit of a roll on . All of this was not directed to you, but to the Society of Deliberately Twisting Spines.

To all. I am suprised that nobody has picked up my posting which was a direct copy of Jonathans words on the teaching section on this web site. I think my effort to get people to go there was in vain. The lamp and the Table. plus