"Anonymous. Gozzoli and Betti not a straight arm. My foot."

Those pictures are far from their best quality dancing. If you see their demonstration videos, you will se a much nicer and much more classic looking hold. Which, as I mentioned slips in a challenging series of movements to something more closely resembling the sparse one captured in those pictures.

So we have a couple that does it right in a situation thoroughly under control (and no doubt with the option of reshooting a take the don't like), but slips up a tad under pressure.

That should be a suprise to no one!

Anonymous. I have seen Gozzoli, Pino and Wilks very recently. I make a point of looking at the stance, and will continue to do so whether it be a tape or live or photo. The UK Dancesport UK have altered there opening page and it goes straight to photos now. You have a few hundred to choose from, over fifty on each page. Have a closer look at where the lady stands and the position of both arms. Isn't that a big difference since your learning days. I'll answer for you. Yes most definitely. Nobody could say otherwise.

No, it is not different. They make mistakes under pressure, but what they teach and demonstration teach is quite classic.

Anonymous. Now come on. You aren't trying to say that dancing is the same now as it was when you first took to the floor. And are you saying that all those photos are mistakes. Every couple there, literaly hundreds. For those who don't know we are discussing the position of the lady, plus her left hand and in particular the right arm. Is your right arm as a lady as straight as those you will see in the photos. This is the ladies arm , not the man's. This is the way todays competition dancers dance. Go look for yourself.
www. dancesportinfo.net Any trouble getting there go to dancesport uk. one of the first thing you will see to your left is that address. These are from the recent International in London.

"Anonymous. Now come on. You aren't trying to say that dancing is the same now as it was when you first took to the floor."

I can assure you that the underlying principles have not changed.

"And are you saying that all those photos are mistakes. Every couple there, literaly hundreds."

Yes. It is well known that the hands tend to fly out from their ideal position.

If you take what they achieve as your goal rather than what they have been instructed to do, you will compound their imperfections with your own.

"For those who don't know we are discussing the position of the lady"

We are not discussing the position of the lady, which is about right, we are discussing the misposition of her hand and the gentlemans.

"Is your right arm as a lady as straight as those you will see in the photos."

The lady's arm is not supposed to be straight but to have a graceful bend to the elbow. A straight arm is missing a critical element of the hold. If the man lets his left arm wander to far out, the lady's arm will be straightened - but that always has and always will be a mistake, though one easy for anyone to slip into.

Let me try to explain in detail why this is so critical. The lady's shoulders need to have a presented rotation, which is to say forward and up, down and back. This strongly suggest a particular rotation of her arms. For her right arm, the elbow needs to hang slighly inside of her hand, with her palm connected to the mans. If his hand is too far out, or too far depressed, this element is broken. For her left hand, again, the proper position of the shoulder suggests a hand that is rotated to the inside of the mans arm, not the outside.

Yes, it is possible to create a good posture even with these elements of the hold missing - but it is much easier to create a good posture when these key elements of the hold are there to suggest and reinforce the posture. If you go around, you'll hear some spreading the outrageously ignorant advice that the hold is purely decorative - and theirs clearly is. But to dancers trained to use the hold as a soft and living connection, each element of a proper hold is a contributor, and non should be neglected.

There is no goal in modern dancing that is incompatible with these classic elements of hold - they get left out merely because these young and busy dancers have too many other demands on their attention, not because they are in any way obsolte. And if you did what they said rather than what the photographers catch them doing, you'd already know that.

Hi Anon3
i will take your word on that. I just didn't notice all of those finalists using it (which perhaps says something)

On this "lady's right arm being straight"
The lady is further over to the man's right side these days, so it's inevitable that her right arm will be straighter than in the past (unless the man changes his left hand of course).
It does depend a little on how long the lady's arms are

"On this "lady's right arm being straight"
The lady is further over to the man's right side these days, so it's inevitable that her right arm will be straighter than in the past (unless the man changes his left hand of course)."

No, it is NOT inevitable at all.

The straightness of the lady's right arm depends only on th straightness of the man's left - the change in body position makes a minute difference.

It's simply a function of the man's memory to keep his hand in the proper position. If you watch, most of the guys start out well, but lapse in challengning and especially rotary figures.

There is absolutely no advantage to haveing that arm straight! And I expect this thread will be put to bed unless someone has a clear argument as to what they could possibly hope to achieve by straightening it...

Anonymous. With the man,s arm in the same position that they were right at the beginning when dancing was first formulated, which is both arms are at a right angle to the body. I don't think even you will disagree there.
With the lady further to the man's right side and his left still in the same position that it was 70 odd and more years ago. How can any sensible person believe that there hasn't to be a change in the ladies right arm.
As a man stand in the middle of a normal size door frame. With both arms in normal dance position, both arms will be at a right angle.
Now you are the lady. Still holding on move to your left. You tell me what happens to your right arm.
Go out to the side you are a lady. Come back to the centre you are the man. With the man's frame still. What happens to the ladies right arm.
When you have made up your mind . Go to the pictures on the Inter Net and check for yourself.
If you are a Social Dancer just take up your normal position. If you are competing at this moment you either are, or should know the correct position for one who competes.
Don't think that the position of both parties is rigid, because it is not. If it were you wouldn't last through the afternoon sessions at Blackpool. You would tire very quickly.

None of this has substnatially changed during the time that people here have been dancing.

"With the lady further to the man's right side and his left still in the same position that it was 70 odd and more years ago. How can any sensible person believe that there hasn't to be a change in the ladies right arm."

Because the tiny change in the body position is easily accomodating by a change in the man's hand position. The body might have moved a few cm, but the hand has over 40 cm of possible variation in its position, meaning that it can easly accomodate a slight change in relative body position.

"When you have made up your mind . Go to the pictures on the Inter Net and check for yourself."

You might be intersted to note that Hazel Newberry consistently has a nice graceful bend in her arm - about like the good pictures of Mirko & Alessia, who manage to start in that position but not always to hold it.

"Don't think that the position of both parties is rigid, because it is not."

Of course it isn't. But the position of the bodies plays only a small role in determining the straightness of the ladies arm - the position of the hands has five to ten times more to say about that than the position of the bodies does.

And there is no sane reason for sticking your hands way out on their own. Not to mention the very good reason of keeping them in, so that the man's palm can be connected through the ladies gracefully bent elbow to her right back. Straighten the arm and this connection is lost - any fools who prefer a straight arm (you won't find many) obviously never had that element of conneciton to begin with.