"Phil. The arguement as usual got way off from how it started. I quoted from the Technique book that there is no difference between a step in the Waltz and a step in the Foxtrot."

You did not such thing - THE BOOK DOES NOT SAY THAT, because it is NOT TRUE.

You made that silly idea up all by yourself, and if you hadn't notices EVERYONE is finding fault with it.

"In the book there is not a different technique for the actuall steps."

Yes there is. See the comment that mentions something like the 'bracing of the legs' being applicable to some dances/figures and not to others. This occurs well within the period of step one, as it occurs while the body is moving towards the foot, long before the feet close.

"This is where the difference lays, It is what happens after the foot is in place , if this is a Waltz on the and count between the two beats."

Sneaky... trying to shift it to beats rather then steps, when we already established that STEP ONE IS NOT THE SAME AS BEAT ONE. The difference is downright obvious well before the ends of STEP one. On a skill dancer, it can be felt even early than that - probably before the strike of beat one.

"This I was told. A step is just a step. "

People usually oversimplify when talking to beginners...

"If you were asked from a feet together position to take one driving step forward. Would you ask is this a Waltz a Foxtrot or a Quickstep because I need to do each one differently."

Yes, I would, if I expected that the correct details were desired. There no such thing as a standard driving forwards step, it is entirely DEPENDENT ON THE CONTEXT OF ITS APPLICATION.

"But to go back to the beginning. There is no visible difference on the prep step and the first or second or the step into the Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot for the lady who is extending to the toe which then becomes a ball."

There had better be a difference!

(But if you don't LEAD THE DIFFERENCE, what's she supposed to do, make assumptions based on the music?)

"The third step has CBMP. Who would like to say that those steps do not all have the same technique."

Of course they do not, THEY ARE DIFFERENT STEPS, EACH WITH ITS OWN TECHNIQUE!

Maybe you can enlighten me. Exactly what is the dfference between the prep step and the first of the Feather. Apart from that one is a LF and the other a RF

"Maybe you can enlighten me. Exactly what is the dfference between the prep step and the first of the Feather. Apart from that one is a LF and the other a RF"

Think about it for a minute: the prep step is basically a step 3 action, though begun halfway through so it's usually danced as onto a flat foot (ie, slightly a heel) rather than a toe lead.

The prep step is basically a shallow downswing. The first step of the feather containes the bottom of the swing, and the all critical get-it-going-up-gain.

They have extremely differnet roles, and so on a dancer who understands the overall flow of the dance, they will be noticeably different.

Hey quickstep, could you explain how YOU define a step? And explain why do you think a heel lead should be the same for all the dances? And do us all a favor okay? Try not to quote Alex M when you do. Try defining it yourself for a change.

Seems to me that you wrote a lot of words down on this thread, but you didn't really say or explain anything.

You know, CLAIMING something without backing it up with a clear and logical explanation is simply bad form here on the Internet. And simply quoting somebody (such as a well-known name) to give credence to your argument without elaborating on why it was said (commonly known as parroting or weaseling) is even worse IMO.

I'm trying to understand this thread and understand why you think the heel step is the same. But I can't seem to.

IMO if you want to be listened to and believed, especially on advanced dance topics like this, you'll have to back it up at least with SOME reasonable, coherent, and well-thought of content. Otherwise, IMO, you end up looking like a common dilettante, and that's not what you want us to think, is it?

I would not attempt to rewrite a book that has stood for so many years.
What I try to do on one step forward. Is more what I try not to do. I try to go to the end of the step before I turn. My moving foot will come into a balanced position under my own hip line. I am trying not to turn into my step. I try not to turn my foot into the step. I try very hard to use the whole of both feet. Going backwards I try to keep my weight over my standing foot by flexing the knee and extending as far back as I am able before I shift my body backwards. I practise lowering my heel to the floor only as my moving foot comes under the body. Thats enough. All of this you will find is the same as the book and the diagrams in the book.
One clue that might help us to understand. There is very little difference between 1 2 3 of a Natural Turn in the Waltz and the S Q Q of a Feather Step. In fact the Feather step was more than likely to have been taken from the Waltz and just let the foot pass. If you think of it that way I could start moving and after the first step you could call out Waltz or Foxtrot and I could turn it into either. Do you finally get the message.
That's given you something to think about hasn't it.

"Do you finally get the message.
That's given you something to think about hasn't it."


NOPE. Doesn't give me anything new. Your understanding of dance is where I was ten years ago. Like you, I was very proud and persistent about what I (so obvious to my teachers) misunderstood. I too, took AM's book literally. What's worse (and like you), I was very arrogant about what I THOUGHT I knew.

The hardest skill in ballroom dance is to LISTEN. LISTEN. LISTEN. You need to open your mind to other ideas, because there are others out here who understand it better than you do. What's worse is they can see how little you truly understand. One day, you'll eat humble pie. Believe me I know, because I went through the same thing you're going through. Until then, sadly, you'll never make anything of your dance.

Thank you for replying, but I'm standing down from this discussion. IMO it is pointless to further discuss such matters with such a closed mind.

"The hardest skill in ballroom dance is to LISTEN. LISTEN. LISTEN. You need to open your mind to other ideas, because there are others out here who understand it better than you do. What's worse is they can see how little you truly understand. One day, you'll eat humble pie. Believe me I know, because I went through the same thing you're going through. Until then, sadly, you'll never make anything of your dance."

Yes, confused, that's pretty much the size of it.

Consider this gem from Quickstep for example:

"If you think of it that way I could start moving and after the first step you could call out Waltz or Foxtrot and I could turn it into either."

Sure - one could force a difference that late. But a DANCER would never accept this as a general practice.

The more advanced the dancer, is, the more subtle nuances they will incorporate earlier in the action. This both telegraphs their intent for the benefit of the partner, and also already adapts their own movement to their goals in terms of nature of the dance an musicality.

To a beginner A and B might be identical, but to a more advanced dancer while A and B have some strong similarities, they are very different things.

For a beginner such as quickstep to try to argue that the two are the same, based on his lack of understanding of their differences, is a STRATEGICALLY LOSING PROPOSITON. He can't win, because his argument is based not in his knowledge, but in his ignorance. All someone has to do is point out something he's been unaware of (which happens around here a few times a day) and the whole thing crumbles.

Have any of you thought about the possibility that Quickstep is a handycapped person who cannot dance himself, but studies books and videos and dream about dancing himself? I have this strange mental image of a man on a wheelchair who writes the stuff that he writes here. I did not mean any offence to any handycapped people. And I know there are wonderful wheelchair dancers, even though it is not same with the ballroom dance we know of.

I hadn't thought about the wheelchair concept, but definitely quesion the talent and intelligence of someone who clearly spends more time reading about dancing than actually doing it (also doesn't seem to be going anywhere with all this). I suspect if he were getting good advice from talented professionals he wouldn't have so much time to chit-chat! (As John Wood would say, "so you see we have an awful lot of work to do!") Somebody needs a good coach!

According to the book. The difference between a Walk in the Quickstep. The step will be slightly shorter than in the Foxtrot owing to the quicker music.For the same reason the knees will not relax quite so much as in the slower tempo. I wont give what page that is on Because you have a reading problem.
In the Waltz it must be understood that a complete circle in six steps is never danced the construction being based on diagnal lines which require only 3/8ths of a turn on each THREE Steps. So then if we are an intelligent person we will then find out if the very first step is straight to the end of. What does the written words say and the charts show. Maybe you would like to tell Alex.
Answere Please. What is there that differs to anything that I have copied and written.
Now let us hear the usuall abuse when you are beaten for an answere.
You haven' t fallen in yet have you. I'll explain. You or anybody can play two world champions chess at the same time and either win one and lose one or draw both.You will not lose two. All you would do is duplicate the moves. The two champions are playing each other. I just sit in the middle. Which I have done with you most of the time. You have been arguing with Alex Moore for weeks and weeks without knowing it. What I have given you is most of the time word for word is from the technique book.
I am still waiting for details of the book or books which you in your infinite wisdom believe say anything different to what I have written. I'm sure Alex if were possible would like to hear also.
P.S. Are you still teaching that the left shoulder leads into the first step of a Reverse Turn Foxtrot and that on the second step you are backing diagnal to the wall. Your a fool.