your "judgments" as expressed in this thread about the performance of amateur couples.

You made the claim that amateurs' problems are solely the fault of the instructors. You have used every dodge imaginable to try to avoid backing up that claim.

If you are not in an amateur partnership yourself then you have no basis for that opinion other than your own prejudices. You do not understand that the process of learning to dance with another amateur requires much more effort and commitment and presents many different issues than simply working with a professional, wherein the only necessary commitment is financial.

Answer the question. Do you have an amateur partner?

Obviously, you have never spent much time around cats.

My point about the nature of Tango and Quickstep movements stands. You're using the word "forced" when you should be using "awkward."

Answer the question.



jj

"You made the claim that amateurs problems are solely the fault of the instructors."

No, I did not.

Please learn to read more carefully.

I mentioned that there is a TYPE of failure that is the fault of the teacher rather than of the students.

But you have repeatedly ignored where I have repeatedly pointed out that there are MANY OTHER TYPES of failure as well.

In a discussion of teacher certifications and picking teachers (which this thread is), failures that are the fault of the teacher are of particular interest. In contrast, much of the rest of the time failures that are the fault of the student would indeed be a more worthy topic of conversation. But not when we are talking about how to identify good teachers.

"You're using the word "forced" when you should be using "awkward.""

Both words are applicable to the cases I was describing, but I find "forced" to be more descriptive of the problem. Dancing that was "forced" but did not at first glance appear overtly awkward would still have a problem: even if the dancers were able to conceal it from less experienced eyes, they could not conceal it from each other.

"Answer the question.:"

Stick to the topic.

Yes, you did.

I notice that you are trying to ignore my argument about your partner status and your fitness to judge either amateur couples themselves or their instructors. I pointed out this fact in my first response to you on this thread:


You claim that you've "repeatedly pointed out that there are MANY OTHER TYPES of failure as well (emphasis yours)." Gee, I guess you'll have to help us here because I've read back through this entire thread and don't see any post of yours which discusses various "types of failure."

This forum is not a court of law. Your refusal to answer my question about your having an amateur partner is more than an adequate basis on which to assume that you do not.

Doll and Scottyboy are an amateur couple. Because you are not part of one, you cannot understand the issues that they or any other amateur couple face, especially that of choosing a teacher.

Perhaps you would be wise to stay safe and secure in your pro/am world and stop presuming to impart wisdom to amateur couples that you clearly don't have.



jj

""After observing long enough I came to realize that the problem is specifically with the teachers and not with the students.

Yes, you did.""

Indeed I did observe the class of situations introduced by my previous post ("There are a number of teachers out there who by reputation, certification, and devotion of their students would be thought to be rather good, but when you actually watch their students try to dance, you realize that despite all the hard work by the students, the teacher has not been unable to communicate any of the key ideas that make dancing practical.") long enough to determine that. When the teacher is teaching the figure with impractical geometry, the skill of the two halves of the amateur couple they are teaching it to is irrelevant.

"You claim that you1ve "repeatedly pointed out that there are MANY OTHER TYPES of failure as well (emphasis yours)." Gee, I guess you1ll have to help us here because I1ve read back through this entire thread and don1t see any post of yours which discusses various "types of failure.""

I have not discussed them, because the point of discussion was selecting teachers and students' own mistakes are not as relevant to that as the mistakes made by teachers. But I'm glad that you1ve finally seen fit to admit that I've mentioned their existence - that I have never claimed (as you tried to suggest) that the situations I was talking about where the only type of failure that could occur.

"This forum is not a court of law."

Which is precisely why I will continue to refuse to answer your obsessive and off-topic questions about my personal life.

If you are unable to stick to the subject of dancing itself, that says more about you than anything else.

Having a dance partner is hardly a matter of personal privacy unless you dance together only in a secret studio somewhere.

Demanding privacy in consideration of such a public activity seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Partnership is central to the subject of ballroom dancing. We're not discussing ballet or line dancing here, you know.



jj

"Partnership is central to the subject of ballroom dancing. We1re not discussing ballet or line dancing here, you know."

What is relevant to the particular discussion at hand is that partner dancing must make physical allowance for the presence of a partner in planning its movements.

Who that partner is does not matter if, as in many of the situations that prompted my line of comments here, the movement is not taught in a way that is possible for two bodies to execute together. As I said before, turn on the wrong part of the figure and you make it impossible for your partner. When a teacher allows their students to suffer the result of this without pointing out the cause, it doesn't really matter who they are working with - an amateur couple (as was the case in the majority of situations that prompted my comment), a pro/am student, a pro couple. It is not relevant. What is relevant is that they have failed their students. They have not fundamentally taught them how to execute partner dancing.

No, that topic is not relevant to this discussion. Judging the suitability of any particular instructor for an amateur couple's needs is.

Therefore, the matter of your status and experience as a member of an amateur couple is important when one considers the statements that you make on this board concerning such dancers.

You simply do not have a framework for giving advice in such cases.

I and the vast majority of posters on this forum have been very straightforward about our status and experiences. We know that anyone reading our posts deserves to know who is providing the information.



jj

"What is relevant to the particular discussion at hand is that partner dancing must make physical allowance for the presence of a partner in planning its movements.

No, that topic is not relevant to this discussion. Judging the suitability of any particular instructor for an amateur couple1s needs is."

A teacher1s inability to address the aspect of partner dancing that is the requirement to move in a way that works for two bodies is of key relevance to their suitability for selection to coach amateur couples (as in the situations I was writing about), or in any other category.

I wrote about a category of teachers who would appear to be suitable, but upon closer examination turn out to fail their students in this and related areas.

An experienced dancer can spot this by watching the teacher address - or as was sadly the case in these situations, fail to address - the problems holding back their students.

An inexperienced dancer can spot this in the persistent difficulty that these teachers' students' experience, compared to similar students of other teachers.

What matters to an amateur couple is a teacher's ability to teach the man to lead and the woman to follow.

Because you do not work with an amateur partner, you lack the experience to understand the dynamics of practicing and taking lessons together with another amateur.

For example, you do not know what you should be doing while the instructor is showing your partner her steps or helping her with an issue.

Because you only work with professionals, you cannot comprehend the give and take necessary for an amateur partnership to succeed.

When amateur couples leave a lesson, they can discuss what they just learned and share their concerns. When pro/am students leave their lessons, they can't share anything with anyone unless they're willing and able to pony up more money.

Inexperienced dancers lack the conceptual framework on which to base an evaluation of an instructor's students. Other than working with that teacher themselves, they should watch him or her actually teaching another couple as Terence suggested.

Your last post is just a weak attempt to obfuscate with awkward language.



jj

"What maaters to an amateur couple is a teacher1s ability to teach the man to lead and the woman to follow."

That1s only part of it. The teacher must also teach the figures with geometry that makes them possible for two bodies.

The teachers in question were failing in both respects - not teaching lead and follow skills, and also teaching the figures with impractical geometry, which made them impossible. Impossible I might add for not just the student couple, but for the teachers as well.

"Becuase you do not work with an amateur partner"

UNFOUNDED AND IRRELEVANT ASSUMPTION

"you lack the experience to understand the dynamics of practicing and taking lessons together with another amateur"

UNFOUNDED AND IRRELEVANT ASSUMPTION

"For example, you do not know what you should be doing while the instructor is showing your partner her steps or helping her with an issue."

"Because you only work with professionals, you cannot comprehend the give and take necessary for an amateur partnership to succeed."

UNFOUNDED AND IRRELEVANT ASSUMPTION

"When amateur couples leave a lesson, they can discuss what they just learned and share their concerns."

Obviously. And also irrelevant in the situations that I was writing about, which were THOSE WHERE THE TEACHER HAD TAUGHT THINGS IN AN UNWORKABLE WAY.

"When pro/am students leave their lessons, they can1t share anything with anyone unless they1re willing and able to pony up more money."

UNFOUNDED AND IRRELEVANT ASSUMPTION.

You keep harping on the difference between am/am and pro/am, and completely ignoring that these differences are IRRELEVANT WHEN THE TEACHER LACKS A FUNCTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF PARTNER DANCE.

If you want to start an am/am vs. pro/am thread, go start one. It's not the topic here, and it has no bearing on the topic here, especially when you insist on making UNFOUNDED ASSUMPTIONS rather than responding in substance to the points that have been made.