Anonymous. When you were first taught how to stand. The ladies right arm was as much of a right angle as the man's left. The lady moves to the side and what do we have. No change, I don't think so. Have a good look and tell me with Hazel's right arm is it 45 degrees. is it 90 degrees or somewhere in between. You should be able to give a fair estimate. Having done that point me to the picture, they are all numbered. Don't forget either that the ladies who is already to the side, Her top moves away from the right shoulder. We call it shaping to the left. You did notice the thumbs up also didn't you.

"Anonymous. When you were first taught how to stand. The ladies right arm was as much of a right angle as the man's left."

Absoltuely not. That would be a quite impractical hold. The lady's elbow is much more obtuse while the mans is much more acute.

"The lady moves to the side and what do we have. No change, I don't think so."

The lady has moved a very small distance. But the position of the hands can very by a large distance. Thus it can easily resotore any desired elbow angle - an outragous one as your propose above, or more reasonably a proper one, which is a gracefully obtuse angle of the lady's arm.

"Have a good look and tell me with Hazel's right arm is it 45 degrees. is it 90 degrees or somewhere in between."

It's probably somewhere around 145 degrees. Which is to say, it is definitely bent, but at a graceful angle much more obtuse than that of the man's, as she is most certainly offset from him. Only if he lets his left hand get too far from his body would her elbow actually be straight - if he keeps it in a reasonably position, her elbow will have the nice kind of angle that hazel consistently demonstrates, and alessia gets when mirko isn't distracted and neglecting his hand position.

Anonymous. For starters I don't think Hazel has danced for several years. Who knows, maybe a few years ago I wouldn't know how she danced, so I am not qualified to say. What I do know is how her former partner's partner is dancing up untill about three weeks ago. Please stop evading the issue. I asked you to look up the pictures of this most recent competition and give me the number of any picture so that I can see for myself how it would differ from what I have been writting. How thick are you exactly. Once again and hopefully for the last time. As a lady we walk towards the man as if we are going to walk past his right side. Then we connect. I don't know of any coach who teaches otherwise.

Anonymous. I think you might have given yourself away. You haven't been dancing all that long have you. If you had you would have known how the setup used to be. You most likely came along when the ladies right nipple was lined up with the man's shirt buttons. Then they turned clockwise and took their right side away. Which meant the contact between them was more the man's right side to the ladies left. And yes the man twisted the spine very slightly. Today it is right side to right side. Going back even further the lady was very square on, and her right arm matched the man's right arm in the angle of the arm. In those days the steps that were being done was nothing compared to today. What we have now is a evolution. Don't stick in the past. Even if you have to fly to get a decent lesson . Do it or get left behind.

"Anonymous. I think you might have given yourself away. You haven't been dancing all that long have you. If you had you would have known how the setup used to be. You most likely came along when the ladies right nipple was lined up with the man's shirt buttons. Then they turned clockwise and took their right side away. Which meant the contact between them was more the man's right side to the ladies left. And yes the man twisted the spine very slightly. Today it is right side to right side. Going back even further the lady was very square on, and her right arm matched the man's right arm in the angle of the arm. In those days the steps that were being done was nothing compared to today. What we have now is a evolution. Don't stick in the past. Even if you have to fly to get a decent lesson . Do it or get left behind."

You are still too obsessed with the trivia to realize that there has been no fundamental change in the mechanics of the hold. Slight repositioning and optomization, yes, but no change in the way things work.

As for taking lessons with the best, I do it regularly, but you clearly never have, or you would not be making such outragreously ignorant statements as that the lady's arm should be straight.

Here's a suprise for you: if I get a comment on arm position, it's that I have it TOO straight. And me already prefering a to keep those hands quite a bit in. Now puzzle that, mr. straight arm!

"Anonymous. For starters I don't think Hazel has danced for several years. Who knows, maybe a few years ago I wouldn't know how she danced, so I am not qualified to say."

Well I personally danced with her in 2004, and have seen a heck of a lot of pictures, so...

"I can see for myself how it would differ from what I have been writting."

You have been claiming that the lady's arm is straight, but you have to be a total idiot to see that the arm does not have a noticeable bend in all but line position - which sadly are often distorted. It is not the same angle as the man's arm of course, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but it is definitely supposed to have a bend to it.

PS - when I danced which Hazel she put her thumb across mine!

Anonymous. We all know that when we use the word straight as with the knees or the elbow in never means rigid. There is always a bit left. Anybody who is seriously into dancing should know that. It should go without saying. I don't think the English language has one word to describe something in between bent and straight. Hence the word straightish which is neither bent nor is it rigid, But from the older style of dance position for a lady which was extremely bent we could say straighten.. There is one couple who make all the finals of which Michael Barr said he thought the ladies arm was too straight. The possibility is the girl might be short and being to the man's right side finds it neccessary to have a very straight arm. On the tape it is very straight the only curve is the slight natural curve of a ladies arm.
Might as well keep the pot boiling here. Which brings us to the near perfect build man to lady that is needed to become a successful competition dancer. There are no plump people or plump persons dancing in the competition arena at the top level. It is neccessary to be a perfect match height wise as well.

"Anonymous. We all know that when we use the word straight as with the knees or the elbow in never means rigid."

Rigid does not describe a position, it describes a muscle condition. I think perhaps you meant to say locked. And you will certainly see pictures of high placing professional ladies with their elbows locked. But I am glad that you realize this is a serious mistake.

"There is always a bit left. Anybody who is seriously into dancing should know that."

The elbow will never get even remotely as straight as the knee will. There's a purpose for having a just-less-than locked straightness to the leg in a variety of situations, But abosuletly nothing to be gained by straightening the lady's elbow. One you get past maybe 145 degrees it is simply an error - nothing more.

"There is one couple who make all the finals of which Michael Barr said he thought the ladies arm was too straight. The possibility is the girl might be short and being to the man's right side finds it neccessary to have a very straight arm."

No, the man can easily fix this by bringing his left hand in. The role of the man's left hand is to connect to the lady's right back, and if his hand position is straightening her elbow to the degree that this connection is lost, then his hand position is WRONG.

"It is neccessary to be a perfect match height wise as well."

No. It is easier, but it is not necessary. Hazel was nominally too tall for Chris. Vicki was way too short for Michael... The greater the height difference, the more technical perfection is required to avoid anything uneasy in the appearance of the couple.

Anonymous. I have this measuring device. I had dancing in mind when I bought it. I haven't a clue what it is called. I put it at the elbow of one young lady at the studio. She has a rather tall partner. The angle read 150 degrees.
You said it. "The greater the hieght difference the more techniqual perfection is required ". Lets say 140 degrees to 150 degrees. 145 degrees is pretty straight in my book much better than that old 90 to 80 though. Don't you agree. There is a photo of Timothy Houson and Joanne Bolton 2nd in the Professionals at the International
No.104275. With my contraption I can get a measurement off the screen. Joanne's arm is at an angle of 140 degrees. Which to me can be called straightish. Chris Hawkins partner is exactly the same at 140 degrees. Now isn't that interesting. I think the 140's have won. Now with my new found toy I should be able to measure the shin to floor from a pause on the TV screen off a DVD..

Guys,
Whats the obsession on having the perfect hold. There is no such thing as a perfect hold and that the lady's hand should be bent to a certain degree. A hold needs to be adjusted as per your partner. The opbective of the hold is to have the centre of couples weight between them. The hold will be different for a couple 1 and couple 2 where couple 1 (man=80kg and lady=60kg) and couple 2 (man=100kg and lady=50kg). Each one needs to adjust their posture and hold so that the total combined weight of the couple is always centered between them.