"The specific aspects under discussion in this and that thread are minor in comparison to issue of a change in your broader perspective of ballroom dance. At that point and in other earlier threads you saw the prescribed technique as the 'be all and end all' of ballroom dance now you beginning to see it is the basis or a point of departure to more advanced technique."

Nope.

If in fact you take the time to read through that old thread, you will see that I was advocating exceptions to the written technique even then. Specifically, I pointed out how step four of the spin turn is not danced the way it is written. I did allow the possibility someone might make the written way work, but more as an I can't prove they won't kind of thing than as an expectation.

Anonymous. IDSF Final. Five out of six did an Over Turned Spin Turn into a Turning Lock at the beginning of their Solo routine. The fourth step was taken diagonal to the wall including the sixth contestant. It can be seen that the step is down and that the heel appears to be lowered. What is apparant is that the man turns around his own centre once the lowering onto the step is complete. The body is at this point absolutely verticle. From there there is rise and fall, high on the toes on 5 6 lower at the end of. Down into the lock and so on.
The question still remains. Is step four a pivot and does it remain so whether we do an underturned or overturned or into more Pivots. Do we do the same action to whichever it might be..
When my teachers return after the UK Championships I will ask. That won't be till the beginning of Feburary after their spell in Japan. Till then mine is a pivot untill told otherwise.

"Anonymous. IDSF Final. Five out of six did an Over Turned Spin Turn into a Turning Lock at the beginning of their Solo routine. The fourth step was taken diagonal to the wall including the sixth contestant."

Yes, you are quite accurately describing where it is commonly placed.

What you are missing though is that they don't actually pivot the foot. The place it pre-turned and then they turn the body, but the foot itself does not pivot against the floor much if even at all.

As for the step placement, I long wondered about that, and recently got the chance to ask someone who coaches world finalists about it. Answer... it's wrong, just as I thought. HOWEVER, given that it is quite common and recommended to underturn both body and even foot on step three of the natural, we have to be careful what reference we use to judge the position of step 4. We need to be sure that we are comparing it's placement to the previous direction of movement, and not the body orientation which is a different thing entirely. With body and foot underturned, step 4 may look like it is in a different position than it actually is - not everyone who appears to be doing it wrong may actually be doing so if you outlined their footprints on the floor.

Anonymous. I think what is being fogotten here is that the step is back to whatever alignment I am on.When they take a pace backward they are already backing.
I have noticed something unusuall from one of the couples. You know in the V Waltz we always start facing diagonal to the centre for a Natural V. Waltz. This one couple started their modern waltz the same way. It gave them a big sweep into the first three. After their introduction steps the amount of turn over the man's right foot I thought was very spectacular. They were from Denmark.

"Anonymous. I think what is being fogotten here is that the step is back to whatever alignment I am on."

Actually, no.

The step is backward relative to the theoretical alignment. Even if the practical alignement changes from that (by choosing to underturn the foot), the direction of the step remains relative to the theoretical alignment.

"When they take a pace backward they are already backing."

No, the usually are not yet. And that can make the step appear to continue more to DW than it actually may be going.

"I have noticed something unusuall from one of the couples. You know in the V Waltz we always start facing diagonal to the centre for a Natural V. Waltz. This one couple started their modern waltz the same way. It gave them a big sweep into the first three. After their introduction steps the amount of turn over the man's right foot I thought was very spectacular. They were from Denmark."

It's hardly unusual, though sometimes a bit overdone. You have to be a bit careful in establishing a larger right side lead windup - right side leads generally need to be much more subtle than left side leads.

Anonymous. You are not looking at the dancing I am looking at. They find their new alignment then apply CBM After that the pivot is a breeze.

"Anonymous. You are not looking at the dancing I am looking at. They find their new alignment then apply CBM After that the pivot is a breeze.:"

1) The issue of the misplaced step 4 is not one of alignment, but rather one of direction of movement in the room. The step is sometimes moving to DW rather thand down LOD. However, if the alignment is not what you expect and you can only see the dancers and not the wall for reference, you may form mistaken impressions about where the step actually went in the room - a step taken down LOD could look like it went DW if the bodies were underturned compared to your expectation.

2) They do not actually dance a pivot. Look at the tapes carefully, and you will see that the standing foot does not really pivot against the floor much if any at all.

Anonymous. I've looked very hard at that fourth step and the alignment, and have done for the last 10 years, after one of our local celebrities teachers who goes to England every year without fail at Blackpool, and has lots of lessons. Told us that the 4th step of the Spin Turn is now diagonal to the wall. This at that time was news to me. But I have since looked on tape live and he was correct. Nobody tries to take that step backing the LOD any more. Except in a Bronze meadal or a teaching examination. I would imagine that to cut out the Pivot on step four would be more difficult than using the other alignment.In the hands of a not so skilled dancer the teacher needs to be wary that the step must not resemble a tipple chasse which it can if they drop onto it without the correct lowering.

"Anonymous. I've looked very hard at that fourth step and the alignment, and have done for the last 10 years, after one of our local celebrities teachers who goes to England every year without fail at Blackpool, and has lots of lessons. Told us that the 4th step of the Spin Turn is now diagonal to the wall. This at that time was news to me. But I have since looked on tape live and he was correct. Nobody tries to take that step backing the LOD any more."

I agree it is often done that way, but out of laziness - it is not "correct" as was confimed when I asked one of these champion couple's own coach about it.

"I would imagine that to cut out the Pivot on step four would be more difficult than using the other alignment."

On the contrary, that was recommended, at the same time changing the alignment was criticized.

"In the hands of a not so skilled dancer the teacher needs to be wary that the step must not resemble a tipple chasse which it can if they drop onto it without the correct lowering."

Indeed. But even with lowering, if the wrong alignment is danced it becomes a different figure. And the lady is left very open and exposed when the man does this. Just look at the comparable situation on step 1, and you will not see the lady stepping off to wall on a divergent track from the man - instead, she moves to DW with the man, while making space by shape alone.

Apparently the men are allowed to be lazy on step four, but the ladies still do it right when it is their turn on step one.

"at the same time changing the alignment was criticized."

I'm sorry. I have mis-spoken. The issue of concern the the direction of the step, which should be down the LOD. There is much more flexibility in the foot alignment of the step, which will indeed in modern practice be substantially turned in.

In other words, the foot should MOVE down the LOD, but it may be oriented in ALIGNMENT to back closer to DW.