Hi Anna, nobody is saying they only turn to back DW. What we are saying is that the step is initially placed with the foot backing DW but the foot continues to turn so that step 3 is taken back LOD.

The actual reason your partner may pull you off your heel turn is if they try to get right round to back LOD too quickly. Delaying the turn on the RF allows the lady time to make her heel turn.

"If i turn only as far as to back diag to wall as a man , and then take step three, i"

Nobody other than serendipity has suggested that you do so, and he did it only to argue against it.

What has been suggested, is documented in the books, and been taught for generations is to place step two with the feet backing diagonal wall. But as has been pointed out repeatedly here, the feet neither start nor stop in that alignment. As step two is taken they are rotating to reach DW which is a snapshot in time but not a pause, and then during the later half of step two they continue right on rotating to reach backing LOD.

And that is what I have been saying all along. I left the best till last. That second step does not travell once it is in position. It doesn't move in any direction It only rotates over its own axis.As you are aware on the chart there are ten squares, at the side is an arrow pionting to the LOD. If all of those first and second foot positions were set out those two squares diagonaly opposite each other would be completely full of foot positions. All you have to do is to step to a position where without moving the foot off its spot you will finish backing the LOD. If you look at the ladies chart you will see where the man must step if they are to maintain their posture which is the same as when they started
At this point I suppose I should mention that my parents used to have lessons with Alex Moore who did compile the book.Alex was fanatical about the feet brushing as they past each other. With the patient leather shoes in those days, my father used to put a smear of Vasaline to the rear of the shoe otherwise they could stick and literally impede your movement as well as making an awfull squeaking sound.
Still no comments on the videos on youtube. I think now I can safely say that you believe they are correct.

"I really thought you said places his foot initially backing DW. Hold on. That's what you did say. Now I am confused."

Yes you are! You are confusing step direction with alignment of the feet.

Take a simple example with no turn to cause confusion.
Begin facing centre/backing wall. Step to the side RF, this will be moving along LOD and the direction is 'side'. The foot and body will still be facing centre/backing wall, so the alignment will be facing centre or backing wall. Which one is used normally depends on the direction of the following step.

So, step 2 is a side step, moving DC, with the foot alignment when placed backing DW.


Regards the videos, nobody has ever said they were wrong. Did you really expect everyone to bother to say "Yes the 10x world champions are dancing correctly"?

Now you have me totally confused Serendipidy. I thought it was you who originally argued that step 2 was a progressive step along the LOD and not a side step?

Nobody is saying that any of the demonstration videos is wrong. I do not think anyone is saying the books are wrong. The books do need interpretation by a qualified teacher or coach which is why they are not intended as a 'teach yourself to dance' guide.

The book charts describe a snapshot in time and were originally prepared without the luxury of frame by frame video analysis. All dancing is continuous movement, the foxtrot in particular, which makes them difficult to describe fully by a sequence of snapshots.

If you are able to freeze the demonstration video, there will be a point where the man's weight is transferred towards his RF as it is directly to the side of his LF, and he will be backing DW. That is the snapshot that the chart describes as step 2.

Shortly after that, due to continued rotation, the LF can make a step backwards down the LOD. If the snapshot is taken at that point then the alignment would be (almost) backing LOD and the foot position would be RF side and slightly back or even diagonally back.

If you cannot freeze the video, and that is why I say YouTube is not an ideal medium, then dance the figure and freeze your own action to check.

"Now you have me totally confused Serendipidy. I thought it was you who originally argued that step 2 was a progressive step along the LOD and not a side step?"

Leaving aside the question of who might have said what, or what the step should be in this case, there's no conflict in a progressive step down the LOD also being a side step. One description of direction is relative to the room, the other is relative to the feet.

That said, it should be progressive, but in customary orientation probably somewhat towards DC than purely down LOD. On average and at the instant of description it's a side step, but it begins as a forwards one and ends as if it had been a backwards one. In terms of balancin progression with thd partner, it's key to realize that the axis of the heel turn partner's turn progresses somewhat during the course of that turn, and that the outside partner is passing from 'upstream' to 'downstream' of the inside one which will require a substantial difference in travel.

Anonymous. The step is across the LOD. Quote RF to the side across the LOD page 175. It is impossible to make anything from that other than what is written. I have written many times that that step is a step to the side. This you will see if you watch our better dancers in action. Or go to the examples I have itemized. I was guilty at one time of not taking that step two wide enough.
I think where the mistake is made reading from the charts is. If you divided that 3/8 of a turn into a million parts. You would pass through all of them. You would not stop anywhere in between. The chart does look to the beginner as if there is a stop about half way. What must be done is not to ignore the description of the steps as they are written. But to combine them with the foot positions. And then go to the ladies steps and the description. Do you see a stop halfway. Of course you don't.
If you want to continue with this. You must be balanced on that right foot. If it is taken backwards as a progression you wont be as balanced as you should be and you will catch your weight with the LF. The LF is a Backward Step in all its glory from a balanced position, and not a prop. I leave it to the jury to consider their verdict.

Serendipity, despite your tone of urgent correction, none of the technical points in your most recent message are actually under dispute. Instead, they are all things that others have already said here multiple times over the past few days - that the step is to DC (and thus across LOD), that it's a side step, and that the rotation of the foot continues from the given alignment of backing DW on through to backing LOD without pause.

Anonymous. So we all agree that we go all the way around in one go, crossing the LOD to a position which is backing the LOD. Then we take a Backwards Walk on the LF and lower and compress ready for step four.

No we don't all agree
"""Quote RF to the side across the LOD page 175.""""
THe alignment is the foot alignment, not the body alignment, nor the direction of travel of your centre.
Here's a simple question. When you have your right foot placed on the reverse turn, and your weight is roughly evenly distributed between the feet (i know, it doesn't stop there, but this instant would be before your left foot passes the right), what would be your body alignment? Backing LOD?