"I don't think the rise & fall IS at odds with the footwork. 2 ends on T becasue of the rise, but the step isn't taken on the toe, because the R&F is down on 1 & 2 (rise e/o 2)."

On the contrary, as documented step 2 is taken onto the toe, but it is a low toe.

Toe footwork does not necessarily mean rise. See for example the lady's action on the first step of either turning lock - it's a toe, but the rise commences only from the end of the toe step, not from the preceding step as is the more typical case when we encounter toe-only footwork.

I've never seen the figure danced with a Toe 2. "As documented", the usage is just to use T & H, but we all know that a wider range of parts of the foot are in use, and T often means BoF, as seems consistent with the descriptino of the figure from Moore's 10th Ed. Ballroom Dancing.

It's an old-fashioned figure - I'm happy with his take.

Can't type tonight - sorry. I'm posting as a guest, so can't correct.

Is it fair to say that most of the rise e/o 2 should come through the knees and therefore 2 should be taken on a slightly more flexed knee compared to a reverse turn.

Interested. If the Basic rise and fall was used the lady would think it is going to be a Reverse Turn. In the technique book the alignment is when it follows a Double Reverse Spin. On the D.H. rise at the end of step two. there is no sway or swing. Who among us doesn't believe that we turn at the end of step two and not into it
It is clearly stated that the second step of the Drag Hesitation should be wide and on the ball of the foot.
The answer to your question is if the rise was as is in a Basic the wrong signal would be sent to the lady.
Would you believe 41 messages to tell what can be told in 19 words.
P.S. On one of your earlier posting you wrote If I don't lower at the end of the DRS. That question doesn't come into the discussion . You must lower at the end of the DRS regardless of what might follow with one exception which is an Overspin. Cheers

Polished. you are probably right. it may well be that the technique was designed for lead-follow purposes. on the other hand it might be that this is just incidental, albeit fortunate.

i guess that the technique represents the favoured trends of the time. people favoured this for good reason (consciously or unconsciously) - and there is almost certainly more than one reason.

which of the various factors (assuming these were analysed ??) was uppermost in the minds of those responsible for the standardisation, i do not know - this information seems to me (although I might be mistaken) to have been largely lost in the passage of time - such that all we can now do is to consider things de novo.



well good question - i've heard it said on here - at least with regards reverse turns - that turn occurs after or just as placement of step two occurs. BUT if CBM is generated (ie torque is applied) on 1 and the L heel is released before the end of 1 how can turn NOT occur before the RF reaches its destination on 2 ? this also impinges on how much of a sideways swing from the hip is required to end in a " to side" position". I've heard it said that swing through such a side step only occurs in a forwards direction relative to the line of the hips. But that can only be true if the turn IS delayed until after placement of step 2.

Interested. When you wrote the heel is released before the end of 1. Are you looking at it from the ladies steps or the man's. There are two different techniques used at exactly the same time on the same step.
The lady does not swing on step from 1 to 2 on a Reverse Turn. The man does. No two people Swing at the same time. One Swings the other follows up after their partner has passed.
If this is not done correctly the lady will take the mans centre away from him and arrive and be several inches out.
A sure test is do the Reverse or Natural Turn and on three if you are not in exactly the same position as you were when you started something is very wrong.

i meant for the man. ie since it is a HT step then the heel will release before the passing of the feet cf a normal fwd walk (ie H) without rise where it will occur as they pass.

Intersted. When trying to figure out where the rise on any step occurs simply apply the technique from the technique book which is Commence to rise at the end of one. If this were a Foxtrot rise at the end of step one.
The technique does not alter throughout the dances unless it specificall says so.

Yes but "rise e/o 1" does not mean "rise as the feet pass", nor does it mean "rise at the end of step 1". it means rise during the last part of step 1 ie at some point between placement and passing. it doesn't specify exactly where within those parameters it will occur (but you know it will not occur immediately after placement because the weight needs to move through the foot, and it cannot be delayed until the feet actually pass because the heel will naturally release at that point anyway, even without rise). So reading between the lines the rise must start at the beginning of the last quarter of the step {cf a normal fwd walk where heel release will occur at the very end of the step).The rise is completed by the placement of 2 (and probably by the passing of feet at the end of step 1 ???) otherwise the technique would say start to rise e/0 1 and continue to rise on 2 etc. That is my interpretation anyway.

anyway - i disagree with you - in the sense i think the technique does alter throughout the dances - and, in ways, that are not stated particularly clearly and the definition of e/o re rise anf fall certainly needs to be clarified in my opinion.

And there are other more general issues of this type too. I often hear it said that the technique specifies the status at the end of a step. Then I hear people saying the end of a step is defined as when the feet pass (or close). But some colums of the technique like alignment and position clearly refer to the end of the placement, whilst others like rise and fall indicate what is happening beyond placement up to passing. So how you define the end of the step depends on what aspect of technique you are considering.