"The lady does not swing on step from 1 to 2 on a Reverse Turn. The man does. No two people Swing at the same time"

ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT,

The swing is determined by the needs of the partner who has to go further, but it is executed by both dancers.

"well good question - i've heard it said on here - at least with regards reverse turns - that turn occurs after or just as placement of step two occurs. BUT if CBM is generated (ie torque is applied) on 1 and the L heel is released before the end of 1 how can turn NOT occur before the RF reaches its destination on 2 ?"

You make an extremely important and often misunderstood point about the proper timing of the heel release in a HT action - it is indeed before the feet pass, in contrast to the heel-only steps when it occurs later.

But your conclusion about turn is mistaken. CBM does not immediately alter the direction of movement nor (in the forwards case) the foot alignment. When CBM is used on the forwards half of an ordinary turn, something very close to the original foot alignment is maintained as step two is placed, and then the feet turn only as your weight starts arriving on the second step.

"I've heard it said that swing through such a side step only occurs in a forwards direction relative to the line of the hips. But that can only be true if the turn IS delayed until after placement of step 2."

Actually, the swing is forwards relative to the line of the feet, which don't turn much until after the placement of step 2. The hips on the other hand have turned a fair amount even during step 1. The usual reference for direction in the ballroom technique is the alignment of the standing foot, not that of the body.

OK. i do mean the feet.i guess in saying the hips i was making the simplifying assumption that they were aligned with the feet.



I agree that there must be a delay in getting the turn through to the feet on 1 as it takes time to develop that CBM. But how can you stop the supporting foot rotating under the forces generated through the use of CBM (ie if you twist your waist anticlockwise, isnt there a tendency for the lower half ie the legs and feet to follow through in order to relieve the strain - after all isnt that why you apply CBM, because of the knock on effect it has on the feet - a bit like a wind-up toy. And if you place step 2 before you make any turn doesn't it have too heavy a look, a bit like a fwd. walk tng in rumba. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying turn during the placement of 1 as that would clearly screw up the alignment and wouldn't be clean. But I dont seem to be aware of keeping tension in my waist for that long.

Perhaps I am overestimating the role of CBM in driving turns. So the key question is where does the torque come from - perhaps it is more to do with the ground force as step 2 is placed. But then again by the time full weight is transferred the centre of rotation will have shifted over to where step 2 is placed, such that the ground force will no longer be centripetal.

"I agree that there must be a delay in getting the turn through to the feet on 1 as it takes time to develop that CBM."

It's not that the CBM takes time to develop, it's that CBM does not imply foot turn, especially in the forwards case. CBM is body rotation alone, wheras foot turn is change of alignment. There is often one or two steps delay between the CBM that commences a turn and the change of foot alignment that realizes it. In other cases, CBM is used but there never is a change of foot alignment.

"But how can you stop the supporting foot rotating under the forces generated through the use of CBM (ie if you twist your waist anticlockwise"

CBM is not really accomplished by twisting in place, though some twist of the body is the proper result in a number of cases. Instead, it is executed by a drive that is not directly through the body's center of mass, but instead to one side or the other. That applies a torque to the body, resulting in rotation of the body. The standing foot does not rotate much both because the drive is relatively aligned with the standing foot, and because the standing foot has sufficient friction against the floor to be held in place without rotation.


"isnt there a tendency for the lower half ie the legs and feet to follow through in order to relieve the strain"

Such neutralization would occur only at the point in the figure where actual turn (change of foot alignment) is specified. In other cases the twisted cross-body position will be carried through several steps without turn - in those cases, that twisted body position is given the formal name CBMP.

"But I dont seem to be aware of keeping tension in my waist for that long."

There's only a little bit of twist at the waist, most of it occurs in the hip sockets - the pelvis is rotated relative to the legs.

"So the key question is where does the torque come from"

Torque is force applied some non-zero distance from the center of rotation. If your drive is aimed slightly to one side of your center of mass, your body experiences torque. If your foot is very slightly turned as you begin to arrive on step 2 in waltz, the uplift from the floor you experience through that foot will be slightly offset from the ball of foot, and a further rotation of that foot will occur.

hi anymouse.

i haven't had time to read your replies in detail. will do later !

one question that immediately comes to mind. what is the difference between a step without CBM and one with CBM. If you just need to make the drive just offsett from the centre of mass, presumably all you need to do is to angle the knee very slightly outwards.

on a more general level, what led you to think as seriously as you obviously have about human movement mechanics in dance. and have you found it useful in your teaching ? do you feel there is much interest in it within the standard/latin community ?

"one question that immediately comes to mind. what is the difference between a step without CBM and one with CBM."

body rotation or the lack of it

"If you just need to make the drive just offsett from the centre of mass, presumably all you need to do is to angle the knee very slightly outwards."

I'm not sure I'd say that the knee is offset to the outside, but you are right that the mechanism will not need to be large or visually obvious.

"on a more general level, what led you to think as seriously as you obviously have about human movement mechanics in dance."

It's basically a combination of a few starting points that I got from other people, and realizing that what the really insightful dance teachers and dancing physicists are saying actually fits together extremely well. Some examples:

- Someone did comparison calculations for potential energy at the top of rise vs. kinetic energy at the fastest and lowest point, and found they were moderately comparable

- Dance teacher who pointed out that most figures have two steps still moving in the original direction before the turn, and then one step after. I later realized that this puts the turn at the point where the energy is at its most in non-directional (potential) form and at its least in kinetic form.

- Dance teacher who introduced the concept of rounding out the lowering even from foot closure, which makes even that type of lowering a form of downswing, rather than the lower over the foot and only then move taught to beginners.

- Dance teacher who insisted that the hip and shoulder advance with and over the standing knee when commencing a forward action, and not remain stationary over the standing foot.

Anonymous. This does bring up an interesting point. On a turn, take the first three of a Natural. Many of us try to think of turning with the feet. But try this. Stand as if one step has been taken. With the arms in the correct position. in relation with the body they will not move. Forget about the feet and simply rotate your left side around just as if we were inside a barrel with our elbows touching and not leaving the sides. Don't worry about the RF . Get the side around and don't cut the turn. This is a Natural movement. Just like an areoplane. The wing tips travell the furthest.

Anonymous. You are still under the impression the two people dancing together both swing on the same step. Your own senses should tell you that on a turn if the person on the inside were to swing with the person on the outside. They , the person on the inside would arrive too early and arrive before their partner.. Why do you think that on every step where the person is on the inside it is written in with the footwork NFR ( no foot rise ). If this is done incorrectly especially in the V. Waltz it can even be dangerous. If you look at that dance carefully you will see what appears to be a slight pause by the person on the inside as the outside person swings past.

"Anonymous. You are still under the impression the two people dancing together both swing on the same step."

Because in fact they do.

Your mistake is in not realizing that the smaller action on the inside of the turn is still a swing.

"the person on the inside would arrive too early and arrive before their partner."

I've already pointed out to you numerous times that the person on the inside of the turn must time their swing to match the needs of the person on the outside. You keep ignoring this point, and so keeping coming to a mistaken conclusion.

"Why do you think that on every step where the person is on the inside it is written in with the footwork NFR ( no foot rise )."

No foot rise does not mean no swing.

"you will see what appears to be a slight pause by the person on the inside as the outside person swings past."

Appears perhaps to the untrained eye, but the skilled dancer knows that it is not a pause, but merely a much slower swinging movement.

Anonymos. Find a teacher who has had international experience and ask them. I think you will find they will suggest that the person on the inside holds their position untill the person on the outside swings past. They then follow them up onto the next step. In other words like in the V, Waltz. You go. I go. You Swing. Then on my forward step I Swing.
Copied from the book. Natural V. Waltz.
1. RF forward. Facing D.C.
2. LF side (long step ) Backing Centre
3. RF closes to LF. Backing D.C.
4. LF back and slightly to the side.
Backing LOD
5. RF to side (small step) Pointing diag to centre
6. LF closes to RF..Facing D.C.
The lady is the natural opposite
And you are telling me that there
is swing on step 5.
On steps 1 make sure you do understand why we face D. C. to start and also to finish on step 6.