Anonymous. Two people. The one on the outside has further to go than the one on the inside. How do you recon we both finish together in exactly the same poise that we started.I'll tell you. The one on the inside applies No Foot Rise.( NFR ). on step one. and then follows the man up into the rise. The man must be allowed to go past on the first and second step of the Natural Turn.That is a step and a rotation. If not the lady will arrive to soon and both will lose their centres.

"Anonymous. Two people. The one on the outside has further to go than the one on the inside."

Polished, what do you think I meant when I wrote the following?

August 27: "I've consistently pointed out that the person on the outside of the turn has a larger swing."

August 24: "while Karen swings the inside of of the turn on the first measure, Marcus is swinging further than her on the outside. And then at the very same time when Marcus swings the inside on measure two, Karen is swinging further than him on the outside"

August 21: "the partner on the outside is going to want to move not just enough to pass us, but enough to pass us AND move both halves of the couple down the floor."

You write: "The man must be allowed to go past on the first and second step of the Natural Turn.That is a step and a rotation. If not the lady will arrive to soon and both will lose their centres."

To which I'll supply my answer that you ignored a week ago:

August 21: "I've already pointed out to you numerous times that the person on the inside of the turn must time their swing to match the needs of the person on the outside. You keep ignoring this point, and so keeping coming to a mistaken conclusion."

Anonymous. No wonder it was written in a Uk Dance publication that the first three of a Natural Turn in the Waltz which has been with us since 1922 is still being argued about today.
On one tape which I have. The instructions are. Swing. Turn Sway. The other tape says. Drive Swing Sway.
Take your pick.
And Alex doesn't think it is worth mentioning. He does of course mention Turn and Sway.
So does Sway = Swing.

Simple answer.. no.. sway may be achieved from a static position, as in a " broken " sway line , there are other e.g. ( sway without swing )

Scrivener taught that sway was virtually absent for man, on 2 and 3 ,moving into the Whisk action ( swing without sway ) .... at best he said, "It is sympathetic ", this falls in line with the prescribed CBM ( and also, worth noting, the ladies sway should be opposite to the Rev.techn. direction ).

Much of this goes to show that there were disagreements in the hierarchy ,that were never resolved .

As len said.. techn. cannot always be exact, as circumstances may change to affect standard ideas .

Would add this caveat.. for exam purposes, it would be wise to adhere to current principles .

"Anonymous. No wonder it was written in a Uk Dance publication that the first three of a Natural Turn in the Waltz which has been with us since 1922 is still being argued about today."

Typical - when caught in a factual error you simply change the subject!

Anonymous. In all the years I have been taking lessons I have never heard anybody say that the person on the inside of a turn Swings. I have been told that on the Natural Turn in the Waltz that the man Swings past the lady. I have been told that when the roles are reversed the person on the outside the lady is in control.Up to that point the man will instigate the Swing and the lady will follow.
If as a lady you think the passing of the body from one position to another is Swing. Then by all means Swing. Don't forget the Sway whilst you are teaching the lady to Swing.
Also to stay on the man's right side whilst they are Swinging, which is without footrise on step one to two, and to keep that head to the left and over the LF throughout..

"I have been told that on the Natural Turn in the Waltz that the man Swings past the lady. I have been told that when the roles are reversed the person on the outside the lady is in control"

This is true in that the needs of the person with the more physically demanding action - the larger swing on the outside - will have to be accomodated by both partners.

The problem is in assuming that this means that the person on the inside cannot be swinging at the same time. And that's simply not true - in most figures, they not only can, but they must swing at the same time in order to achieve the kind of full and smoothly continous movements that characterize epxert dancing. But as always, they must take the needs of their partner as a guide to the size of their action.

With very new beginners, it may be a reasonable instruction to tell the person on the inside of the turn to stop and wait. But as the dancing becomes smoother and fuller, and the dancers become more attuned to each other's needs, such an approach is no longer appropriate. Instead, they need to learn to move in continous coordination - and in most swing figures, that means both swinging proportionally together. This is precisly what you see on that video of the Hiltons, or any other example of skilled dancers fully dancing.

Anonymous. At last. Now you know why some friends of mine on their very first lesson on arriving in Europe. The lady on the first three of a Natural Turn in the Waltz was stopped and told she had taken the man's centre away from him by arriving to early. This was with one of those high profile coaches.
He went on to say that she was now out of position with her partner and it was going to take the next bar of music re-adjusting. Then it would happen all over again on the next simular step. I believe she told me that cost them 75 English Pounds.
Something else that must be taken into consideration is that the lady is to the man's right side. He is foremost of the partnership. Somebody will be thinking. What happens when the lady is going forward. Not to worry. Her left side and foot will be the furthest forward if she stays in the correct position and swings past her partner. Thus doing 50% of the work.

"At last."

What you mean is that at last you decided to read what I've already posted numerous times.

"The lady on the first three of a Natural Turn in the Waltz was stopped and told she had taken the man's centre away from him by arriving to early."

As I've been saying all along, you must accomodate your partner in your movement.

But your mistake is in thinking that this precludes swinging on the inside of turns. It does not if you have a moderately skilled partner. And if your partner is of championship caliber, they are going to be quite upset with you if you do not swing on the inside of the turns, as if you do not you will limit them to moving simply past you, instead of moving past you plus a lot of shared travel, which is what any video of skilled dancers shows happening.

What I would do in a studio if I were teaching. I would glue two tennis balls togethere. I would first explain that this is not exactly how a couple would be together, but it will do.I would rotate the balls around their own centre and explain that each ball is moving an equall amount. I would then step the balls along. It can clearly be seen that the one on the outside is travelling much further than the one on the inside. I would ask them to bear that in mind whenever they do a step which has turn. In particular i would do this in a beginners class. It would only take a few seconds to get the message across.