hi all,

I'm dancing ballroom over a year now and have never had so much difficulties in learning a turn as I do now.

Perhaps there are some useful tips how to perform an overturned natural spin turn in the slow waltz. I seem to get 'stuck' in the second half of the turn and never make is complete.
Any suggestions on how to handle this?
Regards

Gert

Gert. You might try making sure that on step 4 there is a half a turn. Then 3/8th of a turn between 5 and 6. The lady must also know the amounts of turn. On your own ( solo ) try the whole of the Spin Turn with the arms at shoulder level and keep them moving. drive your extended arms don't let any part fall out of line . I was once told that if I thought I was in a barrel with my elbows touching the sides and that they never leave the sides. Dont twist the spine. If you are able to do this solo and not with a partner you might look at the ladies amounts of turn. There is one half of a turn over step four. The rest over the next 2 steps which is 5 and 6. You might try the ladies steps from step 4 yourself.
If you find you are try to do most of the turn on 5 and 6 it is going to be awkward as a pair.
I'ii ramble on here. What I used to think was an Overturned Spin Turn wasn't. It was just a normal Spin Turn to finish backing diagnal to the center with the LOD. An under turned Spin Turn would finish backing diagnal to the center against the LOD. A Overturned Spin Turn will finish backing the LOD ready for a Turning Lock or whatever. You will find the make or break step for both man and lady is step four. I do find that unless they have been taught the ladies are inclined to hang back a bit on that step, which means the man has to use his sturdy arms to get her around. Which then can make them collapse on 5 and 6 instead of still turning. Again ladies half a turn on four get your weight onto five on the toe and don't lower that heel to the floor. Brush to the side on step five, that doesn't mean get your feet together like three of a Waltz I hope this helps. Good Luck

"Gert. You might try making sure that on step 4 there is a half a turn."

There should be a half turn between steps 3 and 5, but there is no half turn of pivot on step four. Instead, the body turns into the step, the foot pivots slightly, and then body turns a lot more out of the step. This will substantially help with hitting step 5 with both the spin and the balance you will need to finish the figure. Think of it less like a natural pivot turn, and more like steps 1-5 of a naturl, only spin when you get to the ball of the foot on 5.

"Dont twist the spine."

Twisting the body around the spine is rather essential to the natural CBM that makes the figure work.

"What I used to think was an Overturned Spin Turn wasn't. It was just a normal Spin Turn to finish backing diagnal to the center with the LOD. An under turned Spin Turn would finish backing diagnal to the center against the LOD. A Overturned Spin Turn will finish backing the LOD ready for a Turning Lock or whatever."

That is the correct alignment, but there really isn't much difference in the various actions - the overturned one is just a little bit more so. I suspect that someone having problems with the overturned spin turn can't dance one to the less turned alignment cleanly either, and it might help to practice those for precision firts.

"You will find the make or break step for both man and lady is step four. I do find that unless they have been taught the ladies are inclined to hang back a bit on that step, which means the man has to use his sturdy arms to get her around."

Ah, that's a clear problem. The lady has to be willing to project her body past her standing foot as she lowers from step three with her feet closed. It is extremely hard to do this - much harder than what the man does via a prep step into step 1 of the natural.

The man should not be using his arms to torque the lady, but he should turn his body even as he is placing step four, as this early turn of the body will allow the lady to project her whole left side as she takes step 4 - in that position she can dance a substantially more powerful action. Again, it is not a natural pivot turn - it is a spin turn, which a slight hint of the ordinary 45 of natural action rather than just a pure pivot.

Anonymous. It appears to me that you have echoed what I have already written, or is it my imagination. I think you might have worded this wrong when you wrote. "Twisting the body around the spine. Did you mean turn the body around a straight spine which would be correct. We do not twist the spine.
As it is instructed on enough tapes we must keep our imagined blocks of wood, which are at the pelvis level. We keep them one on top of the other and do not let them move out of place. That is forward or sideways. It is possible to twist the upper body and keep the blocks one over the other. But now we have a twisted spine haven't we ?.
.I can see that either through very ordinary teaching, or in some cases just plane laziness, a very important ingredient is missed or is missing. Leave that till next time. Unless you are smart enought to tell me before. There is always the chance that you might read the above and fall in. We will see.

""Twisting the body around the spine. Did you mean turn the body around a straight spine which would be correct. We do not twist the spine.
As it is instructed on enough tapes we must keep our imagined blocks of wood, which are at the pelvis level. We keep them one on top of the other and do not let them move out of place. That is forward or sideways. It is possible to twist the upper body and keep the blocks one over the other. But now we have a twisted spine haven't we ?."

I don't think we need to get into the anatomical detail of if the spine itself twists or if the body twists around the spine - what is important is that the blocks of weight, while remaining in a line with each other, will indeed need to rotate to different angles from each other at some points in a well danced CBMP action. The body is not a monolith.

"I can see that either through very ordinary teaching, or in some cases just plane laziness, a very important ingredient is missed or is missing."

All sorts of things are missing. Notice that I did not post a complete description of the step - it cannot be taught in words alone. Instead I expanded on your description with certain minor additions and corrections.

I have not intention of playing guessing games about which of the many ommitted details you consider most important. Name it and we can talk about it.

oops, that should of course be a CBM action not a CBMP action, don't know how that P snuck in there

Anonymous. The missing ingredient is the use of the feet and ankles to take us where we want to go. If you twist your spine I will guarantee the feet are in the wrong place., otherwise the spine wouldn't be twisted. Try a Reverse Weave in the Waltz from step four and keep the shoulders still and use your feet to take you through. Let your feet carry your body, not your body carrying your feet.

"If you twist your spine I will guarantee the feet are in the wrong place., otherwise the spine wouldn't be twisted. "

Anon3, various parts of the body need to be rotated to different angles about the spine specifically because there are points in the action when the direction in which each needs to face is not the same.

Quite often the feet are not pointing the same direction as the body for example. Consider a forward CBM action - the body rotates, but the feet do not.

The spin turn is partially a pivot, so the foot will rotate too. But it is not a pure pivot, so the body will do a CBM rotation that is more than the rotation of the foot. Contrast the natural pivot turn, in which the body and foot rations come closer to matching, and step 4 of the natural turn, in which the body rotates but the foot does not.

should clarify - it is the lady's foot that does not rotate on step 4 of the natural, as she has the forward CBM action. The man has the backward CBM action and so will toe in slightly, but nowhere near matching the rotation of his body.

Hi,
Two queries. Can you actually twist the spine? Billy Irvine? Never heard him called that until Don wrote it. When he was in the UK before going to South Afica he was always refered to as, Bob Irvine. When he met his late wife she was refered to as Bobby, so Bob became Bill.