In the manuel it is called The Hold. If we are trying to copy or dance something like the very best dancers. Everything we do will be incorrect right from the very first step if we have not got the lady in the correct position in relation to our own body.
Whatever you do, dont think the picture in the technique is the way to go. It was once, but it is no more.
If the lady is to far in front we will never be able to bend our knees as the better dancers do. do. With the lady too far to our middle and a deeper knee bend. We will have a clash of legs which we will try to avoid by short stepping. Or not bending at all.
The best think to do is get a video and study from the feet to the top of the head. Do you see how even the left hand hold has altered. A few years ago you would never have seen a part of the thumb protuding. You will now. And for a reason. Look to see how much of the man's body is covered by the lady. Right side to right side. This was unheard of years ago. It would have been more right side to the ladies left side. The moral of all of this is the lady has her space. The man has his. Neither will go into the other persons space. The lady will be allowed dance her own steps and not be pushed around by the man. And if we want to use our knees more we won't be able to with the lady stuck too far to her right, right in front of us. So I have been told. Lets hear the comments.
One more thing. On a Reverse Turn Waltz. Do as Richard Gleave teaches. That is there is a second flexing and use of the knee after step one. And the lady should not swing on two. On one she has NFR. She lets the man go past and follows him up. If they get there first on three they take the man's centre away from him. If they do swing at the same time they must arrive first having the shorter distance to go. This I have also been told.

I have seen this 'thumbs up' hold, which of course is promoted by a very well respected(with good reason) top coach.
However, i find it looks silly and can't buy into it because i simply cannot see the need to stick my thumb up as if i were looking for a lift. Starting with the thumb up position, i can cross my thumb over my partner's (to give the more traditional hold)with neither of us having any change of feeling or 'control' (if that's the correct word)at all.
Can someone please explain why it's needed?

"I have seen this 'thumbs up' hold, which of course is promoted by a very well respected(with good reason) top coach.
However, i find it looks silly and can't buy into it because i simply cannot see the need to stick my thumb up as if i were looking for a lift. Starting with the thumb up position, i can cross my thumb over my partner's (to give the more traditional hold)with neither of us having any change of feeling or 'control' (if that's the correct word)at all.
Can someone please explain why it's needed?"

"Egleton thumbs" when done properly produces a specific angle between the palms which helps with the overall hold, and a specific conection - the lady's hand is held between the man's thumb and his ring finger, which is down almost at her wrist. It would be very hard to describe in words what the total goal is, and simply putting your thumbs that way will not achieve it. If you get all the pieces though, the total effect is something you can't achieve without this thumb position. But simply trying your thumbs that way won't reveal the advantage - you need to experience holding the hand of a master teacher who uses this method before it's advantage will be evident.

"Whatever you do, dont think the picture in the technique is the way to go. It was once, but it is no more."

Actually it's not bad - it's a little relaxed and social by todays' standards, but it is quite good for the scope of its purposes. And contains the hints of most of what you would require to dance more ambitiously - they just have to be scaled up in appropriate proportion.

"If the lady is to far in front we will never be able to bend our knees as the better dancers do. do. With the lady too far to our middle and a deeper knee bend. We will have a clash of legs which we will try to avoid by short stepping. Or not bending at all."

Offest is important, no question about that. However, it is not offset that ultimately prevents knee interference. Offset can provide a solution for a forward step of the left leg. It can provide a solution for an outside step of the right leg. But an inline step with the right leg, even one with CBM, will have to go directly at the partner's body. Therefore, another solution is required. And that solution is sending the body weight before sending the foot. By sending your body, you move your partner's body out of the way. You leg is then free to swing in the space under your body. And at the very end of the stride, slightly forward of your body and partially under your partners - but not so far as that your thigh collides with their body. Similarly, for bending the knee when lowering, you have to advanced your body as you bend the knee - if you bend your knee forward while keeping your body back over your standing foot, you will indeed create knee interefernce. And likewise when moving backwards - you can compress forwards to achieve connection, but as you actually move backwards you must take your knee with you, and not leave it behind in your partner's space.

Hi Anon
I wish i could try this with an experienced advocate. What i'm saying is that the angle, finger pressure etc that you mentioned remain completely unchanged in every way when i cross my thumbs, having started with 'thumbs up'.
Maybe one day i'll find out

"What i'm saying is that the angle, finger pressure etc that you mentioned remain completely unchanged in every way when i cross my thumbs, having started with 'thumbs up'."

The angle and pressure which you understood from my approximate words might not be changed by changing the position of your thumb, but the details of those elements that are present when this handhold is done correctly most certainly would change.

This is a good example, of why doing something a specific way will not seem advantageous, unless you learn to really do that thing in exact way that makes it advanatageous. If you just get the look of it, or the most commonly mentioned characteristics, there's a good chance you'll miss the real point and benefit.

Of course you did express an interest in trying it with someone who teaches it, so there you go. Remember top teachers are not unapproachable, and provided you stick to key concepts, quite effective in working with a dancer of any level.

Anonymous. Sometimes when a thing is written it doesn't come out the way it was intended. The writer knows, but the reader might get the wrong impression. When you said, right at the bottom. That the knee on a Backward Walk, you must take the knee with you. If you go to picture 2 in the Learning section you will see that the push is coming from the front leg
If you compare it to picture 3. If the knee is taken back there will be no mid- way, which there is in picture 3.
I must have read your comment wrong, because I find it impossible to move my front foot and knee as you suggested even if I wrongly lowered the back heel early.
If you mean straighten the front knee to drive onto the next step. That's a different story. But to take the knee with you at that point never.

Phil. Thumb up. Six finalists in a major IDSF all with the thumb up.
The benifits. You will agree that the hand is in front of the body.On the first three of a Natural Turn. Therefore on the turn the hand will arrive first and is the first to move. For the beginner reading this. If you hold a stick in front of you and keep it still in the same position and turn it will arrive before the body because it was in front to start with.
The thumb pressure gives the lady an early warning of what is coming up next. Years ago they weren't doing such difficult steps as they do to day, possibly for us we would never have to worry about that. Having said that. You might try it on your two Fallaways and Slip Pivots. Who knows you might become a believer

"When you said, right at the bottom. That the knee on a Backward Walk, you must take the knee with you. If you go to picture 2 in the Learning section you will see that the push is coming from the front leg"

Indeed it's being done wrong in that picture. The knee is bending too far forward against the travel, in order to keep the body weight forward in the standing foot. Instead, the knee should have stopped bending and the toe should be further in the progress of releasing. Backwards movement is about rolling the weight through the foot, not about bending and releasing the knee. To move in the lowered position illustrated the knee must be used - but the impetus for the backwards movement must come from the foot, not the knee.

"If the knee is taken back there will be no mid- way, which there is in picture 3."

No, you are quite wrong to assume that. You could arrive in the position of step three having danced of a straight leg without bending the knee at all. So you can still get to this position even if you straighten the knee as you depart the standing foot, instead of continuing to bend it forwards as was illustrated.

"I must have read your comment wrong, because I find it impossible to move my front foot and knee as you suggested even if I wrongly lowered the back heel early."

Try putting all your weight on your standing HEEL and releasing your toe as soon as your moving toe passes your standing heel. Most of the travel of the moving foot will then be not extension (there's just a little extension from below the knee) but rather the toe release action propeling the body, and the free foot moving with the body. The moving leg will of course start to move faster than the body does, so it will eventually go further than the body - but most people make the mistake of moving their moving leg too much too early - regardless if they are going forwards or backwards. In either direciton, the moving leg should respond to the movement of the body - not precede it and not overshadow it.

This does not contradict the small pre-extension from below the knee that occurs while the legs are still closed - but the point is that this pre-extension is small, because it occurs at a time when the knees are still nearly closed.

"If you mean straighten the front knee to drive onto the next step. That's a different story. But to take the knee with you at that point never."

Taking the knee with you will straigthen it...

Hi Anon3
THe recent world professional Chmpionship in london had several finalists without the thumbs up.
I am indeed prepared to become a believer, and will try this technique - again. However, i'm a believer in understanding why something is done, otherwise i'd spend time following every fad on the planet. The thumb pressure 'early warning' you mentioned. Surely this sort of early warning isn't necessary? or is it? And why can't it be done with the 'thumbs down' hold since i have my partner's hand in mine (awww..isn't that sweet