I've heard it said a few times, that in rise and fall, there's only 'fall' the rise being a returning to the 'neutral' original dancing level.
However, watching some top dancers, it is clear that there is an element 'up' as well as 'down', and i'd welcome views on it.
There is obviously a foot rise but my question is about using the legs. Locking the knees is out, but how straight should they be? I tend to look a little stiff if i straighten them, and the following movements are a little rushed. At the same time, wouldn't i be looking for as much rise and fall as possible?

Phil. I hve just been studying and practicing this based on the Push.Step Swing principle and have made I feel ,some good changes in my rise and fall. After we step and swing there is no further rise from the left(second) step except to cushion the movement as we arrive onto the left foot by straightening the left knee just enought to allow the right foot to be pulled along side. How much we use the left knee (I think) will depend on how good a swing up and drift we have,it may be possable for a few to swing all the way up onto the left foot with just perceptable straightening of the left knee . The point is we won't to allow the swing to happen and give it time to happen. It helps if we dance the timing with our body swing and not with the feet,so beat two is a body position in flight and not where the left foot is. So it follows that the gradual rise in the waltz is danced through the swing of the body. The drift( I think) is at that point in the swing when gravity slows us down and we start to lower. The timing of the closing of the right foot and shifting of weight would have to be coordinated with that change of direction of the body through gravity and not by any mechanical means of stopping the body in flight. Sounds good if I got itright. Dave

Hi dave
Thanks for this interesting insight. You say it helps if you dance beat two with your body in flight, not with the foot. Can i just expand on this a little. Do you dance beat 1 with the foot (i assume you mean you plant the right foot on beat 1)? and then let the swing create the body flight for beat 2? Would your left foot plant before or after beat 2? I must try this out tonight myself

There's actually more body flight into step 1 than into step 2.

Step one must go in the position determined by the body flight of the previous downswing. There is simply no choice in the matter.

But once you rise some through step 1, you have the option of redirecting step two in a new direction - your options are less restricted by the lesser remaining body flight, since some of your energy is now stored in rise. Both the closed changes and the underturned (1/4 turn) natural and reverse make use of this, as well as the obviously named quarter turns in quickstep. Still the more common course is to continue in the same direction on step 2, as used in all 3/8 turning figures.

"There's actually more body flight into step 1 than into step 2."

Depends on how one would define body flight but I generally don't agree with that. There are possible choreographic exceptions to what I'm about to say and I don't mean to be prescriptive but one generally continues to build onto the 'flight' (power, momentum and energy) from the end-of-3 into step 1 into step 2, ever increasingly in the Waltz. One can dissipate or maintain that 'flight' between step 2 and 3 depending on one's choreographic intent thereafter.

"Step one must go in the position determined by the body flight of the previous downswing. There is simply no choice in the matter."

Obviously how one has already danced the previous step has an influence on how one is going to dance the step that is to follow, it sets a context of what can be done, yes. But it does not absolutely determine what it will follow.

Rha

"I don't mean to be prescriptive but one generally continues to build onto the 'flight' (power, momentum and energy) from the end-of-3 into step 1 into step 2, ever increasingly in the Waltz."

You are confusing multiple types of energy. Body flight is kinetic energy, specifically kinetic energy in a particular direction sufficient to force you to either take another step in that direction, or loose your balance and fall. This is at its maximum at the lowest point in the swing. Once you start to rise, you are converting kinetic energy to potential energy - you have less body flight (even if you might have greater total energy, though I believe total energy should be constant in efficient dancing). Because potential energy does not have a directionality (besides 'up') the more that your energy is in the potential form and not in the kinetic form, the more freedom you have to choose the direction of the next step. That's why in the waltz we must never, ever change direction between 3 and 1, but only after we have converted some of our body flight to rise (between step 1 and 2) or for a more flowing action, as the rise peaks between step 2 and 3.

I am learning by the minute. Thanks all. I must not understand, If we arrive on a high heal on the left foot ,then the foot is not used for additonal energy so we don't push from it in the NT. It is only used to collect our weight. All the energy coming from the lowering of the third step and first. In a sycopation where the first two steps are slow followed by a rise would we have three thrust. 3,1,2.

"You are confusing multiple types of energy. Body flight is kinetic energy, specifically kinetic energy in a particular direction sufficient to force you to either take another step in that direction, or loose your balance and fall. This is at its maximum at the lowest point in the swing...."

Fair enough, you are welcome to a difference of opinion with me but I'm not confused, dear.

Firstly, body flight is much more than kinetic energy in a particular direction. The physics of an inanimate object does not equate to a human dancing body. Body Flight is an artistic term and does not directly relate to a particular concept in the science of physics.

The body swing and rotation in the horizontal plane continues to build into step 2, add to that the lateral swing of the hips (up-swing) from the end of step 1 into step 2 and then even further to that add the use of the knees and ankles of deeply soften standing leg that propels the body from the end-of-step 1 into step 2.

The entire character of step 1 of the Waltz is a preparation for the powerful 'swing' from the end-of-1 into step 2. There are definite actions, coming from within the dancers body from the end-of-1 into 2 that maximize what in dancing terms is 'body flight'.

Rha

Well Rha aand Soumyona you both now have me confused ? Rha's way of dancing the basic 18 of the waltz is the way I was taught, and may be fine for first learning to dance up to bronze leval, but I think as we learn to develop more power and swing in our dancing we make less use of the left foot(second step)to increase the swing or control the rise since we will have enough swing power to carry us up to the top from the timing of the lowering on through to step one. But I feel that you are more knowlegable than I (this is a compliment) so this is why I am confused. The way it is described in (A Technique of Advanced Standard Ballroom Figures 2004) is not the way I was first taught back in 1980. Dave.

Dave
Things change.I have an Andrew Sinkinson teaching tape, and his 1-2-3 of the natural in slow waltz departs from the technique book. (and this isn't the 'advanced' section of the tape)
Actually, we've come a little away from my original posting.
At the top of the rise at the start of 3, how straight are the legs? Do you dance this with a conscious bending or softening of the knees, or are they straight (not locked)?