I was over on another message board dedicated to Lindy Hop where someone made a post stating his belief that most ballroom dancers don't understand the importance of the music and simply dance to "the beat". (This same person also does some ballroom)

What am I missing here? No matter what dance and where we learn are we not taught to move to a rhythm? Isn't this our guide?

Just don't know where this viewpoint is coming from.

"Dancing is a contact sport; football is a hitting sport" - Vince Lombardi

I agree that a lot of ballroom folks, including pros, have trouble with timing. Then there's the more subtle questions of foot placement and weight transfer, understanding when the foot strikes vs. how the body moves over the foot. Those types of issues are difficult to handle, even if one understands every nuance to a piece of music.

Some dancers do have difficulty picking up the beat in music, but usually develop the skill with practice.
If we're talking about interpretation - then this to me is the true essence of ballroom. To see the top dancers in foxtrot - they're not strictly following the standard rhythms - in fact it's hard to work out exactly what they're doing sometimes. But it makes all the difference.
I've certainly watched dancers - even in competitions - dancing exactly on the beat and it does look dull.
Music is there to be interpreted, whether it's Frank sinatra, a jazz musician or a concert violinist. Dancing is the same - but it's a great skill and hard to achieve.

I don't know the context of the conversation, so of course I could be way off base here. But could this be a reference to strict tempo music? I confess that I find most strict-tempo stuff to be rather bland and soul-less – the need to keep perfect timing negating some potential for musicians' emotional expression. I don't think swing has the same issue? I don't do east coast much, and I don't recall ever having seen a "strict tempo" swing – but then, I haven't looked for one, either.

I'm a Lindy Hopper at heart, I started with ECS and moved on to Lindy, where my heart remains. I'm not particularly great at it, from the point of view of hitting breaks, but lots of follows like to dance with me.

I used to have no tolerance for ballroom, it all looked to stuffy, and stiff. Then I started ballroom, and I've come to realize how great it is to be able to do many different kinds of dancing.

It does still suprise me that Lindy Hoppers (and perhaps WCS'ers but I don't know many of them) are so shut into their own form. There are people who say, "I only do Lindy Hop", and then go about proving it. I like doing Foxtrot at Swing dances, it really confuses all the spot dancers when my partner and I dance around them.

On the other hand, I can see the value of focusing strictly on Lindy Hop (or any other single dance). A dancer with limited time to devote to learning to dance can get good at that one dance quicker than someone who spreads thier learning time over several dances. They will learn to hit the breaks earlier than their multi-dance counterparts, and might therefor feel superior. Until, of course, a Waltz comes on, and then they sit down and say they hate ballroom.

I always find people who say their form (dance or anything else) is the best form to be funny. Of course _they_ think it's the best, that's why they do it!

I don't mean this as a knock towards all Lindy Hoppers, but I know what you're saying here about the closed mindedness of some of them, but this I get from reading the Lindy Hop forums where it seems that if you even mention ballroom, ECS, WCS you are likely to get blunt replies and then there are those amoung them who will tell their fellow dancers to just shut up and respect other dances since they are legitimate forms which are here to stay and are not about to move over for Lindy Hop and it does remain to be seen if LH will stay around long enough to enter into the mainstream.

There is a Lindy group here in Tucson as well, but the dances they hold every month are those where anything goes as far as swing styles are concerned; people do ECS, WCS and Lindy Hop. The bands will even play occasional Cha-Cha, Rumba and Mambo tunes. The follows are at least willing to do ECS and some of them often ask me to dance knowing fully well I'm going to do ECS, so they are pretty open and a friendly group. I can't say as much for the Local WCS club though.

"Dancing is a contact sport; football is a hitting sport" - Vince Lombardi

Well, I guess the main thing we now know about that lindy hop dancer is that he didn't stop to think very long before writing his response.

Lindy hop and swing dances as a group, including jive, wc, single time, lindy etc....are danced primarily to music written in 2/4 timing. IOW...you count 1,2 1,2 or 1a2, 1a2. Some WC dancers would like to disagree with that b/c they usually count in measures and phrases....but the core of the dance is still swing timing 1,2 simply counted in measures.

All this boring talk about "timing" which the lindy hopper seems to find bland...gives him the answer to his question. The very nature of swing is it's ability to rapidly change, to adapt, and to play. Largely due to the timing of swing, most "set" or choreographed sequences are shorter than those of other dances. It is much easier to take a choreographed swing and cut and paste it to the music than it is to do so with a cha. Also, the open body positions of swings lend themselves perfectly to dancers abilities to "play with" the music however they see fit.

These are great attributes of swing. But it would be a mistake to say that it makes swing a "better" dance than any other. Interestingly enough, if you can dance swing to other types of music, the lindy hopper should remember that it means other dances can also be done to "swing music". QS, foxtrot, cha cha, 2-step, and even sometimes Int. rumba, or samba...all can fit swing just as well as swing can fit them.

My personal pet peeve regarding lindy dancers, and we have a lot of them in KC...is that they are as a group the most closed minded dancers that I have ever come into contact with. Even though we have had a large swing community...we have very few lindy hop dancers who actually dance on time or have any understanding of the techniques they are trying to apply. In short, as a group they are a sloppy mess. I would just love to see one of them try to do a Samba. Most amateur latin dancers have more musicality, movement from center and timing in their little finger than do any one of these lindy dancers who so frequently disdain "ballroom". It takes work, and practice and patience to be good at latin...too many lindy dancers are all flash...they dislike ballroom because they don't understand it, because it would take more work they than are used to.

Sorry if I offend any lindy dancers out there...I am just speaking of the community here in KC. Every dance has it's virtues and it's drawbacks. In defense of our pros and their occasional trouble with timing during competition....I would say that few students actually have a grasp on the complicated timing that occurs at the highest levels of competitive dancesport. Until you have a pro break down their routine and demonstrate for you the incredible dexterity it requires to move at double and triple syncopations...the precision to turn to the exact rotation, foot and body position so that the next step may be reached in half a second or less...if all is not perfect than they will be at least momentarily off time. All I am saying is...be wary of critizing any pros timing based on a competitive routine...it is patently unfair.

Ha...that turned into a rant! Sorry! Best wishes all...

Well, it has to be said that in general the technique demands for social lindy hop are far, far easier than the technique demands of competitive ballroom, so a lindy hopper can pay more attention to the intricacies of the music. That having been said, the very best ballroom dancers can incorporate musicality into their routines, but is fairly rare.

As an aside, I have noticed that the various techniques are easier if you can "hear" them in the music, but then again I'm not entirely sure if I'm hearing musical cues for body actions or if I'm just off my rocker

I have heard these assertions before from various non-ballroom types. Usually they are refering to dancing through "breaks" or phrasing changes in the music. To some extent they are correct, many ballroom dancers have trouble dealing with music that has pauses, tempo changes or other things that come up in regular non-ballroomized music.

However, the problem with this statement is that you could say the same thing about swing dancers (whatever style), country-western dancers etc. Most of them just dance through "breaks" as well. Only the most experienced dancers can do this well regardless of whether they come from the ballroom or swing world.

One of my pet peeves is hearing many of these same people tell me that their dance is so great because you can dance it to any type music. Well, I'm sorry, I don't agree that swing dancing to a cha-cha or salsa song is particularly good musical interpretation even though they are technically dancing on the beat.

Blair

Personally, I would be happy if some ballroom dancers would just FIND the beat! It is tough to learn how to follow when the leader is dancing to his own drummer But really, there are people who will never "feel" the music and just dance the best they can and that is okay, too, At least they are enjoying themselves. In competition, I would guess that there has to be some sense of musicality or they just couldn't make the judges believe they know what they're doing.

tourist