from the 'overturned spin turn slow waltz' thread
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Hi El Capitan,

Agreed, I do need to create torque in CBM and I certainly can feel the torque however I feel the joints that the actually turning are my ankles and hip joints (1st the supporting leg joints and then the 'new' supporting leg joints, by the way). All this while both sides of the body are progressing forward. The torque gets one side doing 'faster' than the other.

I don't feel that shoulders are rotating more than my hips or less for that matter while I creating CBM. That's really the part that I'm questioning.

Rha
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Rha
I am curious, why do you not twist your (presumably) torso during CBM?

Because some would contend that the 'twisting' is necessary to create torque (which is also essential for swing) especially when entering a rotation--hence the general guideline that CBM is performed on a progressive movement rather than a rotating movement.

Rha,
I see your point. Now, if you (as I understand your reply) keep the hips aligned with the shoulders through CBM wouldn't that make the forward progression flat (devoid of CBM), because you don't have any body torque, just rotation of the ankles and knees, somewhat).


I say this because the fundamental (rough) definition of CBM is the rotation of one side of the body towards the moving leg. When the magnitude of the movement increases, doesn't it require more upper body (above the center) rotation? And therefore the shoulders, by virtue of spatial relationship with the partner, will rotate more than the hips?

While, I can see having torque through the legs and ankles, I find it difficult to do when the legs are bent and progressing forward/back. As a practical matter of body mechanics, when creating hip swing (as a by-product of CBM) don't you need body torque-which in this case, is isolated more from the hip upwards. And doesn't that presume, to some extent, rotating the shoulders beyond the hip's line?

"I say this because the fundamental (rough) definition of CBM is the rotation of one side of the body towards the moving leg."

Outside of the sharpest turning actions, torque is not really a goal in CBM. So let's instead explore this idea of the rotation of the opposite side of the body - but let's specifically look at it as a progression of the opposite side of the body (the standing side) faster than the side of the moving leg. Instead of rotation, try thinking of it as one side passing the other.

Consider a forward reverse turn. You want the standing side of the body, the right, to pass the left. That would be fairly easy to do. But you also have a left offset in the hold, which makes it quite awkward to move literally forward with your entire right side in advance of your left side - especially if you start from a position of left side lead having just taken the outside partner step of a feather.

So instead of putting our entire right side ahead of our left, let's focus on the lower part of the body. Without letting the left side of the body move at all backwards, kneel forward on the standing right knee. Because nothing blocks the free left leg in this action, it can move forward, and the right knee actually slip behind the left, nearly touching it. Ideally we would keep the original orientation of the shoulders as we did this - which is to say that the right hip is moving forward but the right shoulder has not yet passed the left shoulder.

Leading the turn in the knees and hips in this way creates a definite feeling of commencing a turn - yet the upper body has not yet rotated and so the hold and body position relative to the partner is undisturbed. You are free to take a full forwards step in the feet. Only as you near the placement of this step should the right shoulder start to swing through and show the turn in the upper body.

The end effect is that you will go from moving forwards with a left side lead, to moving backwards hodling the same shape - without ever having been moving forwards with a right side lead. Some leading teachers choose to describe this as the reverse turn not actually having CBM, while others describe it as the kind of CBM needed for reverse turns. The terminology is not so important as the dancing, which is fairly consistent - skilled dancers do not rotate their topline through early in a reverse turning action, but they most definitely do "something" that initiaties the fact that it is a turning figure.

With all due respect Anonymous:

1. Use a name aside from "Anonymous" and identify yourself. It is very hard to distinguish one from other wannabe "anonymouses". Otherwise I shall(and ask others also to) simply ignore your post from hereon, or ask you to take your post somewhere else.

2. You wrote "...Torque is not really a goal in CBM. So let's instead explore this idea of the rotation..."

Thank you for your detailed post, I think it is quite informative. But Torque was my specific question to Rha with whom I wanted to discuss it with. I understand the title involved Rotation, but please do us the courtesy of NOT disregarding my question towards your own agenda and we will do the same.

3. Although torque is not a goal in CBM, I hold that it is a distinct product of the movement.

4. The action in the Nat turn would be different from the action in the Rev turn, thus the conditions and movement aren't quite the same.

El Capitan. I think I am with you on most of what you said. I am questioning the use of the word torque A mechanics force that tends to cause rotation,
( twisting the cap of a bottle ).
I've had a lot of lessons over the years with some very famous coaches. Nobody at anytime ever got into talking about movement in such detail. Is it necesary . Go into details on the actuall step but as for anything else is concered let it be done whichever way the pupil feels it should be done , then advice.
A little short true story. This friend of mine went to one of these top coaches. He was shown a group, he then asked what timing should he use. The answer was how do I know, your the one dancing it.
After the third step of the Feather into a Reverse. This what I was taught and advised.
Come into a nuetral position with you left foot, and then LF forward. Here is the important part. The left heel must be raised so that when we step to the side we are on our two toes . For a brief moment our weight is slit ( passing from one foot to the other). If the CBMP position on the third step of the Feather is done correctly, we would not have to worry about CBM on the next step, it will happen. This is the point where I would question use of the word torque in a turn. To me torque means twist.We turn but surely we won't twist.

"3. Although torque is not a goal in CBM, I hold that it is a distinct product of the movement."

I hold that this would be an unfortanate result, unless you intended to dance one of the figures which continue rotation beyond the ordinary 3/8. The key to the normal 3/8 turn CBM action is not generating excess torque - it's really a fairly minor and incidental rotation, and any real torque is likely to overturn the body on the second step, which at leas tin foxtrot will spoil the continuity of movement.

"While, I can see having torque through the legs and ankles, I find it difficult to do when the legs are bent and progressing forward/back. As a practical matter of body mechanics, when creating hip swing (as a by-product of CBM) don't you need body torque-which in this case, is isolated more from the hip upwards. And doesn't that presume, to some extent, rotating the shoulders beyond the hip's line?"

I think you will find on careful examination that the actual swing of hip swing is usually linear rather than rotatary, and is usually forwards in direction for both partners. That is to say that the forward partner dances forward in the feet through two steps of the turn and so can swing forwards. Their body rotates, but the direction of the swing is the same as the direction in which they started moving.

The backward partner on the other hand toes in on the first step, and points the foot (before the body) to the new alignment on the second. This means that the foot to foot action of the second step can actually be almost a a forwards one - the veering in knee of the standing leg is alreadry trying to bend forwards into the new direction, and swing the hip that. By the time of the actual arrival on the second step, it is an honest forward action for the previously backward partner - and just becoming a backwards action for the forwards partner. This suggests by the way that the forwards partner swings forward slightly before the backwards partner swings - in effect, each swings during the portion of step two in which they are still, or have just become, the forwards moving partner.

Hi El Capitan,

I see how you understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting is wrong but just to clarify what I'm saying. I'm not saying that only the leg, in isolation between the ankle and the hip joint, is rotating while feet and the rest of the body are kept still this would indeed be 'flat' with just the 'leg piece' in-between rotating.

I going to use terminology, perhaps rather loosely or differently from what you may understand these to mean. But hopefully you get the essence of the actual physical action that I'm performing. Hopefully we will not get into silly debate about terminilogy and definitions. If you can teach me how to do something better then great but here's what I do.

While the ankles and knees are helping to create the forward progression of both sides of the body. I feel that the following is happening to get the moving side going even faster. I feel that there is rotation in the ankle of the standing leg while the WHOLE MOVING SIDE goes faster, and then some rotation of the hip joint of the standing leg adds even more to getting the hips/torso going even faster. However it does'nt stop there I also feel that the receiving leg also does the same, ankle and hip joint. I feel that I produce CBM over both my sending and receiving legs.

Now I could easily follow this trend that I set and then get the shoulders going even faster than the hips while receiving the weight, which will add further rotation at the waist (twisting), to the already rotated ankle and hip joints. But I feel that this rotation at the waist, while it certainly is a useful tool in dance, it in does not belong in the pure CBM action because it's intention is different to the intent of the CBM action, though it can be used at the end of a CBM action to 'kill' body swing/ flight and produce shape, counter balance between the couple and of course shape and an opening of the tops. I do rotate my shoulders more/ less than my hips but not if my intention is to produce body swing.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm satisfied that I producing a very high quality body swing action where it is required but I'll re-examine what I'm doing. I must say that these are just my obervations or perceptions of what I'm dancing.

Rha

Rha,
Thanks for the explanation--I think I understand your point better.

And, yeah, BIG DITTO for the semantics and silly debate thing. I've been in enough online discussions about technique. And most of them end up becoming pissing contests because people try to convert you to their perspective. Usually they don't recognize that they are talking to a really well-informed person.

For my part, I'm always looking for a second perspective. I've always maintained that there are other ways of doing things--more interesting ways, if not better ways.


I have to run, but I should have time later to think more about your view.

Thanks

Maybe I have the wrong end of a very funny stick here. When turning if your arms where outstretched the inside arm will be going slower than the outside if they are going to keep in line with each other. Fold your arms into a ballroom position its now your elbows which are keeping in line and the outside elbow if we measured has the farthest to go and will go faster. The man's frame stays in line otherwise we will twist torque corkscreew whatever you care to call it.I am not suggesting that you can't if you want to you, you can twist as much as you like. But I can say this is not the way you would be taught if you were competing.