A while back I wrote about phrasing in dancing and dance music. Not one person answered or enquired, not even Anonymous. Which leaves me to believe that most don't know anything about it. Even Elvis singing Love me Tender is eight bar phrased.I can only assume that most dance out of tune with the music. or rather in and out. Get out your videos and look to see how on the strong bar of music a strong movement takes place. What use is it dancing your first three on the second bar with the phrasing. This puts the first steps onto the weaker bar of music and the second half of a Spin Turn on the strong bar. Which is back to front.

The Robert Royston swing tapes deal with phrasing, 32 and 48 count. I have not seen much about phrasing in other videos. I was wondering if competitors build sets of steps based on phrasing of the music.

Dennis . A competition dancer would never do a Spin Turn. 4 5 6 of a Reverse. a Reverse Turn. a Whisk and Chasse to repeat. If they did they would be out of phrase with the music. If you did, and it is worth trying, you should feel that you are dancing the strong beat on the second half of the Spin Turn. It is quite possible you have been doing this without even realizing. A judge would pick it in a flash
Todays teachers should not be putting anything that will not fit into an eight bar phrasing. If you do your own be aware. Latin is the same, even the Jive, and don't forget the Tango.
The V. Waltz is different. It is impossible not to go out of phrase. Thats why they should wrap it up and send it back to where it came.The V.Waltz is never danced at Blackpool. Best wishes

And all your plans will be for naught when someone gets in your way and forces you to hold for an extra measure...

If you want to phrase reliably, you will have to learn to do it by hearing your position in the phrase, not by counting or executing a pre-planned, fixed routine.

I should have put this on before.
According to John Wood. There are after the four bar introduction usually 64 Bars of music on a disk. If this were a book In each chapter there are eight pages, they are the bars of music, One page for each bar In the book there are 8 chapters which add up to 64 bars of music..
To understand fully about the music you dance to you should be able to count one chapter which in the Waltz would be. 123 223 323 423 523 623 723 823. That is one chapter, or one eight bar phrase. Then start again for the next block. It sounds complicated but it isn't.
I don't try to pretend I am up to this in the Jive. I am getting better. With Michael Wentink I can tell from his body that he is starting a new phrase. If I can do it so can a judge. What might be of some help is in the Jive. Do a Fallaway Rock then a Jive Chasse to the Left and to the right counting steps. There are eight steps = 2 bars of music. Now count it in your usuall way which is probably
1 2. 3a4 5a6 who is checking back on 7 8. Where's the 1 2 gone. Happy days.

"To understand fully about the music you dance to you should be able to count one chapter which in the Waltz would be. 123 223 323 423 523 623 723 823. That is one chapter, or one eight bar phrase. Then start again for the next block. It sounds complicated but it isn't.
I don't try to pretend I am up to this in the Jive. I am getting better. With Michael Wentink I can tell from his body that he is starting a new phrase."

You will find it a lot easier when you develop the experience to just "feel" where you are in the phrase at any time (by the progression of the changes), without having to keep track by counting.

Just been reading about the videos put out by Augusto Schiavo and Caterina Arzenton (former World Pro Ballroom Champions)the ABC of Ballroom PartII. They recommend routines for beginner, intermediate and advanced dancers. Now what I find curious is the phrasing they are recommending by listing the routines. Taking the Waltz there are 3 14 bars; 1 13 bar; 1 12 bar; 2 11 bar; 1 15 bar and 1 16 bar routine. Is there anyone who is a lover of this strict adherence to 4, 8, 16 or even 32 bar routine would like to get in touch with Augusto and point out to him that to teach - especially beginners - to dance out of phrase with the music is incorrect. I'm quite sure he would be grateful.

Curious. You'll find that this if it is not taught correctly in the beginning. How can they be aware that it is possible to be in time but out of phrase. Also it is possible to be in time but out of rhythm In time but out of rhythm is in the Foxtrot dancing the first of the Feather on the beats 3 4 instead of 1 2. If it is carried on we will be entering the Reverse Turn on 3 4. it should be 1 2 with the music.
In the Quickstep if we do a Quarter Turn Progressive Chasse and a Lockstep into a Spin Turn with the music we are already out of rhythm. This is easily rectified by putting in a double Lock.
Years ago these rules didn't exist and therin lies the problem. If you do a Change of Direction in the Foxtrot from the Alex Moore book it will take you out of rhythm.These days they do not do that.
If you were to dance ignoring the phrasing. It becomes one big blob with no beginning or no end. I don't know what Augusto teaches but I do know how he danced and that was in time in rythm and in phrase.
Are you sure about the counting. Those odd numbers don't seem correct or to make sense.Did he actually state that he would teach one thirteen bar routine. Or two eleven bar routines. I don't know of any music that is 11 12 13 14 15 bar phrased. Dance music is Phrased in eight bars. At the end of the eighth bar it gives a signal that the next beats you hear are the beginning of a new section which will be louder.
We have a style of dancing here which cannot be danced out of phrase . Everybody here knows what phrasing is, they are brought up on it. Young or old all included. So at the present I am sticking to John Wood and my teachers.There are 64 bars of music on a disk and it is just as easy to dance that way than to not. This doesn't mean a dancer has to count like an adding machine. What it does mean is the routines must be adjusted to fit the music. From there just dance but be aware of what is being played. Somebody once told me . Your steps must fit the music not the other way around. The music remains constant.

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Don.
Here are the parts of two routines taught by Augusto and Caterina in the Slow Foxtrot. Feather Step; Rev Turn; 3 Step; Nat Turn; Feather Step (This Feather commences on beats 3&4) Routine 2. Feather Step; 3 Step; Nat Weave; 3 Step; 1-3 Nat, Closed Impetus, Feather Finish; Change of Direction; Feather Step. Again this Feather Step occurs on beats 3&4 of a measure. All figures use the standardized timing.

Curious. Very interesting thanks. I'm not tying to cause an argument here but the first routine you gave is eight bars. I can't see what possible reason he had for not putting the extra slow in on the pull step, which we all do, giving the routine eight bars in all which includes the Feather after starting the Feather on the correct beat.It doesn't make sense that he would give a routine which puts it out of rhythm. The problem is the Natural, sqqsss. or sqqssss.
Exampmle number two again looks like a Eight bar routine. With this time the Change of Direction the step under question to make sure we get the first of the Feather which is the RF on the beats 1 2. But who am I to question Augusto.
I did hear that he might make a comeback with another partner.
Whilst we are on the subject you might like to know that on the Change of Direction instead of hanging around too long we make the last step a quick also the Feather all quicks. If you watch closely with some of our better dancers you will see also an intro on the LF a quick. First of the Feather a quick, followed by the normal two quicks. Anything to be different.