I know this is getting a bit deap. But I will copy the five points of contact between a partnership.
1. The mans's left hand holding the ladies right hand.
2. The ladies left hand resting on top of the man's right upper arm
( behind the arm in Tango )
3. The man's right hand placed on the left shoulder blade on the back of the lady
In addition to these 3 hand contacts, there are two more areas of contact.
4. The ladies left elbow rests on the man's right elbow.
5. The right area of the chest of each partner touches that of each other.
That last one No.5. Years ago when I first learnt we had the hips in contact, not the upper body. Watching more recent videos I can see that is no longer so.
My question is how much of the lead is coming from the area of the chest with todays dancers.
I know the Argentine Tango does have the chest leading. I began to think in Standard unless I use my arms the pressure must be coming from the area of the chest. Put my arms by my side and what do we have to push with. I hope nobody thinks we are going to lean forward. We still stay verticle.
What are your thoughts on this.

I was taught the "5 points of contact" years ago while working for a former Fred Astaire studio, but have since developed my own variation.

First, I no longer refer to them as "points", because none of them are single points. They are all really "areas", especially that of body contact. So I'm very specific about describing "areas", not "points" of contact.

Second, I now only refer to four areas. I'm not a fan of describing the position of the lady's left elbow as being in contact with the man's right elbow. In almost all circumstances the lady's left elbow extends farther out than the man's, which means the lady's elbow itself is not in contact. More importantly, it's unnecessary (and actually in some ways, detrimental) to describe the hand and elbow as two separate points of contact. For me, the lady's left hand and entire forearm represent one single area of contact, which are connected or disconnected together.

Ladies who are taught to connect the hand and elbow often lift the wrist, resulting in a distorted arm position as well as an unnecessarily strong left hand grip. So I talk about the connection of the entire forearm and hand without any gaps, to the point where the end of the arm extends beyond the man's. This makes one single area of contact, leaving us with only four total.

Impossible to quantify. It's shared between all points of contact. We would hope that a majority of the lead is in the body, as alll movement starts from the center. But the other areas of contact play a role, or they would not serve a purpose. I think of them as senses -- you can lose a couple of them and still function.

What makes body contact unique is that it is both the largest area and the closest to the center of mass. As a result, it is the most reliable and also the most sensitive. Great standard dancers can do a lot of leading without any of the other areas of contact (though without at least one other contact area, there are limits to what even the world's best can do in an imorovised setting).

The world's best competitive American style dancers are also experts at leading with single areas of contact other than body contact. For example, one can do amazing things with only the man's right hand to lady's shoulder blade, or only the man's left hand to lady's right hand. But because these are farther from center of mass, with many joints in between, the margin of error is greater, and more weight is required. Whereas body contact can be effective while feather-light, other areas of contact used solo require some counter-weight before any reliabe communication can be established.

In other words, once you take away body contact, connections typically need to be stronger -- not through muscular force but through use of counter-weight (eg "push" or "pull") to be effective as instruments of lead & follow. The fewer points you have, the more counter-weight you'll need, to the point that if you're standing apart with only a LH-RH hold, you're basically using Latin leading & following technique.

This may be more information than a standard dancer wants to know, but in a roundabout way it still pertains to them. At the very least you should realize that all areas of contact serve a function beyond the aesthetic, though none is absolutely necessary at all times and can be compensated-for by the others. Like senses, when one is lost, the others increase in sensitivity to make up for it.

Standard dancers rely on body contact because is it the most simple and reliable area of contact, the one that requires the least amount of effort through which to communicate. But don't make the mistake of confusing "most reliable" with "necessary". There is nothing necessary about body contact, other than the fact that it is mandated in competitive dancing by an arbitrary rule. Take away that rule, and you learn how to blend Standard and Latin lead & follow techniques, a skill that has become the hallmark of expert American smooth dancers.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Jonathan. Thanks for the very prompt reply. Which brings me to part two. Is the lady on a Backward Walk , actually behind the beat, that is when she arrives. If it was before the beat she would be leading. If she is on the beat she could be dancing to the music.Then what happens if the man decides the step should be taken slower. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this. With the man lowering his toe to the floor imediately. And the lady only lowering as the moving foot arrives under the body to me would indicate that the lady is dancing just behind the beat in this dance which is the Foxtrot. I hadn't ever thought about this till four days ago when I went to my first ever venture into the Argentine Tango. I was a bit amazed how much technique was involved. Especially on how to lead with the top. Regards Q.

"Is the lady on a Backward Walk , actually behind the beat, that is when she arrives. If it was before the beat she would be leading."

She should arrive at exactly the "right" time for the interpretation being danced. She will do this by following the man - not following "behind" him, or lagging, but by "following ahead".

Not that there are many situations where the lady really will have to place a foot before the man (such as step 2 of a weave from promenade) but she should still be following - he sends her in a way that determines where her foot should land, her foot lands there, and then his foot lands. Of course if she makes a slight error in placement he will try to match where she actually landed - but he is still leading. After all, she doesn't even know it is going to be a weave!

"Then what happens if the man decides the step should be taken slower."

The lady feels that the entire evolution of the step is slower, and so dances it slower. Steps do not happen in an instant, they have a lenghty process of development, which is 90% about sending the body and only maybe about 10% about placing the foot. If the preparation to send the body and the sending of the body matches, then the placement of the foot will too.

In a nutshell. The lady prepares early and arrives late.

"In a nutshell. The lady prepares early and arrives late."

In general she does not do so any more or any less than the man does.

In some cases she must arrive before him, in some cases he must arrive before her - regardless, they both have to prepare before they arrive.

I don't think you have been keeping up with the reading. The man lowers immediately. The lady stays on the front leg by bendindg the knee forward and should have a feeling of the weight moving slightly forward. Anne Lewis former British Champion. Remember we are talking fractions here. The person going backwards always starts first and will have the moving foot in position as soon as they have lowered. If not they will be pushed off balance if they started with the feet together.

"The person going backwards always starts first"

You can only say that when your oversimplify to the point of absurdity.

When does an action "start" ?

Except for the pre-prep step at the beginning of the dance, we really can't say... everything else has no beginning and no end, only one thing going into another.

If you follow the causality, at least when dancing off not adapting to compensate for mistakes, the origination of everything will point back to information provided by the leader. Unless you think in terms of an "aura lead" (which is not a bad idea really) that information will have to become physical - and in the leader before the follower.

But whose to say where the line between "information" and "action" is crossed, so that you can decide which partner actually "starts" first???

sorry, was meant to say at least when dancing off routine

And another endless posting begins. Jonathon: You got duped into this one somehow and with the original poster, you will never be able to end the post. Owen