Jonathan. Is this of any interest. I had this argument with somebody very recently. They said there is no (and )count between the beats unless it is a Syncopated Chasse.
I said but you are dancing in between those beats whether you know it or not. So you are actually using an (and) whether you count it or dont. What brought this up was John Wood on his tape counting the Waltz 1 and 2 and 3 and. Rumba we have the same over the four beats.

"I had this argument with somebody very recently. They said there is no (and )count between the beats unless it is a Syncopated Chasse.
I said but you are dancing in between those beats whether you know it or not."

Sure, but why stop with and counts? Why not divide into sixteenth notes, or thirty seconds, or sixty fourths?

"So you are actually using an (and) whether you count it or dont."

The question is, do you know what you are actually supposed to be doing specifically on that beat fraction? People may claim to, but a lot of what is being posted can be readily demonstrated to be wrong, as it conflicts with other well known facts, if not with itself.

Even some of what is being taught is technically wrong there, in that those actions are not actually performed at those precise points in real dancing. But that's okay, because that is not actually the point of that teaching. Instead, the point is to use a subdivided count to call attention to each detail in turn. Once the details are mastered at this somewhat artifical pacing, then the whole thing can be put back into its natural musical timing and the now TRAINED body will execute the details automatically.

The difference is that in dancing they come out one after the other in natural progresion, related to the music more by figures or swings matching measures than by individual steps matching individual beats. The fraction-by-fraction mechanical relation to the music is for practice purposes only. Well, not in latin, there you do keep the beat fractions, and also at points in some of the other dancers when the action might temporarily stress a lot of rhythmic accents rather than smooth lyrical movements.

Let us make it easy for you. Inbetween the steps there is a space.In between the beats there is a space. In Modern we use that space to create Sway for instance. To make it easier for you to understand When we come out of CBMP on the Feather Step we do it after the third step has been taken inbetween the beats. In Latin take the Rumba as an example. We have movements of the arms the head and maybe a gesture to our partner. Which in most cases takes place inbetween the steps and the beats. If it only happend at the end of a step . It would then look artifical.
This is why the top teachers divide the three beats in the Waltz into six. And in the Rumba into eight. That is a fact which you have failed to address.
Instead of writting six paragraphs which say--------------. Why not just say this is wrong. There is no count imbeteen the steps or beats. And if you do beleive there are spaces inbetween. Why are you writting.

"Let us make it easy for you. Inbetween the steps there is a space.In between the beats there is a space."

Yes, but in a dance like foxtrot, the two DO NOT LINE UP. Most of the steps in foxtrot actually are actually placed IN THE SPACES BETWEEN BEATS.

"To make it easier for you to understand When we come out of CBMP on the Feather Step we do it after the third step has been taken inbetween the beats."

Actually, you'd probably CBM out of the CBMP during a period of time reather nicely surrounding the strike of beat one. Because in actual fact, STEP three is supposed to be placed in the space between beats four and one.

What you are attempting to describe is much more a relationship of actions to beats that might hold for the latin dances, but really has no place in foxtrot, and farily limited applicability to the other smooth dances.

"This is why the top teachers divide the three beats in the Waltz into six. And in the Rumba into eight. That is a fact which you have failed to address."

No, I haven't failed to address it - I explain the real reason why they do it, which still eludes you. In latin, the given actions might actually happen on the given beat fractions, but in standard THEY DO NOT. Instead, the given relationship of action ot beat fraction is for ACTION PRACTICE ONLY - IT IS NOT PRACTICAL FOR DANCING. Instead, once the body is drilled in the actions, you relate the entire sequence of actions AS A UNIT to the measure AS A UNIT. Try to break it down into factions, and the relationship of action fragment to beat fragment becomes NONSENSE - the relationship ONLY MAKES SENSE IN THE BIG PICTURE VIEW.

"Why not just say this is wrong. There is no count imbeteen the steps or beats."

The world in infinitely subdvidiable, so it's impossible to declare a stopping point for how far things can be divided. Between any two units, there's always a smaller unit. The thing that you are missing though is that once you divide things into fractions TOO SMALL FOR THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MUSIC AND ACTION TO MAKE SENSE, you will dislike the conclusions.

That is why you keep posting relationships of beat fraction to action fraction with are EASILY PROVEN FALSE BY CLICKING FRAME BY FRAME THROUGH VIDEO, and similarly reject the REALITY OF WHAT REAL DANCERS ACTUALLY DO EXECUTE ON EACH BEAT FRACTION, because it doesn't fit your oversimplified theory of what they should be doing.

Break things down to learn the details of actions, but NOT TO DANCE MUSICALLY.

You want to tell me how you can inteintionally land step one on, as a guess, about, 'beat 1.78'???

You CANNOT. But if you dance your entire feather in a way that relates to the music, that is actually right about where step one will land. But counting won't get you there, because you can't count that fraction. Instead, you have to learn to FEEL THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MOVEMENT AND MUSIC.

The fact remains. In between steps there are a spaces. In between two beats there is a space which can be given a name. I will call it an and. What do you call it.
You could have saved yourself a lot of writting if you had used one word. Interpretation

You can break the duration of a beat into as many counts as you like. When I work on Latin technique, my instructor often breaks each beat down into a 4 or 8 count to illustrate and allow me to practice where my foot, knee, hip, etc. should be at each point between one beat and the next.

"You can break the duration of a beat into as many counts as you like. When I work on Latin technique, my instructor often breaks each beat down into a 4 or 8 count to illustrate and allow me to practice where my foot, knee, hip, etc. should be at each point between one beat and the next."

Actually, the valuable bit of information you are being given is really the sequence of actions to be accomplished, NOT their timing relationship to the music.

The relationship you are being given may not even really be right - instead, it may be offered to provide a temporary and unique home in the music for each action, so that you remember to do each thing you are supposed to do.

Later on, in actual performance dancing, with the accomplishment of the actions now a practice-honed reliable reflex, the timing relationship to the music may very well change.

It is true though that in latin there appear to be more actions with well known proper places on the beat. So for latin such teaching comes closer to how it might be performed.

Wheras in standard there are a lot fewer cases where an action really has a proper home on the beat that can be practically described without resorting to a decimal place. As a result, breaking standard actions down into beat fractions is far more about developing the habit of including them all, than it is about learning when they are really supposed to happen. That comes only after the reflex for including them all is reliable, when you start to hear/feel how the OVERALL movements of the dance relate to the OVERALL feel of the music.

Or to put it simply: latin is a rhythm dance with a strong beat orientation. Standard is a travelling dance with a stronger reliance on the musical drive from one measure to the next than on the individual beats within a measure.

In the Rumba the hips never stop moving. This should be easy to follow but is only part of the action.
If i stand feet apart and raise my left heel from the floor, my left hip will be higher than my right. Then it comes back into its neutral position
Do the same on the other side right heel off right hip up and back to neutral.
Starting with a Forward Basic
Movement. Step left. the right hip is highest.Then into neutral and then replace weight to the right leg. Now the left hip is the highest. Back to neutral To the side for 4 1 the right hip is the highest. Repeat on the back Basic. The moving of the hip into neutral happens on the and count and never stops. The speed of the stepping foot on the solid beat, if i said snap that might not be the right word, but it is fast. So the movement of the hips takes up all the time and at the last moment the foot goes in right on the beat. If you don't hit that beat right on the button you will be considered off time. Anybody who is not using the and count is doomed to fail and will never become a a good Rumba Dancer.