I am looking for videos, web sites, books, etc that discuss arm positioning. I'm interested in mainly learning how to move the arms and what beats to move them on, when to start the motion, when to end it, etc. I haven't been able to find much on this topic. Can anyone recommend anything to me?

I'm not sure if this helps, but since you are talking about moving arms, I assume you are interested in Latin-American dances.

If it happens to be International Latin you are interested in, then there is something called "The Green Book". This is an early edition of the Technique of Latin Dancing by Walter Laird, which, I believe, is the definitive guide to International Latin. This edition contains information about the use of arms which has been omitted from later editions.

I haven't actually seen it. All I know is the following cryptic reference: "This edition of the book gave the basic positions required for Lead or Indication; Use of Contact Arm(s) and Position of Free Arm."

The Green Book is available from www.idta.org.uk

Good luck,

Preston (London, UK)

Do you mind if I sidetrack this just a bit? I was going to write more, but I'll keep it short. My main sidetrack question: do you know what the date/year of the update is for the standard technique book? The IDTA store web page says it's new, but doesn't give a date. I'd consider buying an updated version, but I need to make sure it's actually newer than the copy I already have. Also, do you know any more about _The Green Book_? I've never heard of it before. If it's basically an old version of the latin technique book plus arm position notes, is it really worth getting? The latin technique book should be better and more up to date on just about everything. And who knows, maybe its new May 2003 update put the arm position/use information back in (I don't have that version, but will consider buying it). I'm not sure I want to pay £20 for a book just to get the arm info from it.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

Hi...

As I understand it, The Green Book is identical to the second edition of The Technique of Latin Dancing, which was published in 1972. The author (Walter Laird) says: "I have not updated the other aspects of technique in The Green Book since this has been done in the current new edition of [The Technique of Latin Dancing]." So, for most of us there probably isn't much point in buying The Green Book.

I have the new (2003) edition of The Tecnique of Latin Dancing. It has a few sentences about arm positions, and more about leading and general holds and positions, which obviously includes some stuff about arms, but clearly this is not the same as the arm information included in The Green Book.

Maybe that stuff was left out for a good reason? The author himself says: "However, in spite of all my pleas that the use of arm was probably one of the most important aspects of the Latin dance, I was informed that since the subject of arm action had been introduced into the Latin examination syllabus, applications to take the professional examination had ceased!"

In the official competition rules of the International Dancesport Federation they say that: "Free arms should be used naturally." I'm not too sure what they mean by that, but maybe it means that there shouldn't bee any specific technique about it?

Preston (London, UK)

Hi Preston,
Thank you for the information on "The Green Book"...I will definitely check it out on the site that you recommended.

I'm looking for arm position in general for any ballroom dances. I'm a bronze level dancer, somewhat new to competition and am working to compete more in both pro/am and am/am competitions. I compete in the rhythm dances (American)...cha cha, rumba, swing, etc and am adding some international (samba). I'm not 100% certain I know my categories/styles, etc all that well yet, so hopefully that is somewhat of an accurate description of what I'm looking for.

I have worked a lot on technique on the feet, knees, hips, posture, head position, etc. But when I ask for specifics on arm positioning, I have found that it is difficult to get much information (I've asked various instructors and searched the www a little). Mostly the response I get is to just do "something" or do what feels natural. But a lot of the arm movement does not feel natural to me. I've resorted to watching videos of dancers and try to imitate what I see, but I know I could really benefit from some specifics from the experts/pros.

In any event, thank you for the information; I really appreciate it.

Hi Ohio-

As a fellow midwestern dancer I can completely understand your frustration. Arm actions are one of those things that can effectively be taught by example. In other words...if you can SEE a lady pro with arm styling which you like, then you can watch her and begin to emulate those actions.

Arm movements cannot, in my experience, be taught by the written word. The essence of arm actions is to convey specific emotive feeling...thus arm positions in pros aren't going to be just the same in every fan. In fact, wouldn't that be visually boring!

My advice...watch the pros in your area and find one with styling that you like. Try to make sure it is someone with at least several years of pro experience (arm actions can be difficult to break down and you'll need a good lady). Schedule an hour for ONLY arm movements. Lady pros are used to this request.
Take your video camera!!! Take your lesson and then...Get her on tape doing arm movements in several basic areas...fan, hockeystick, etc. Go home and practice!

If you are working specific routines you would probably want a coaching lesson specifically devoted to those movements that you will need. However, social patterns require less theatrics...be sure you know what you want and let your pro know before the lesson

Best of luck to you! Let us know if you need suggestions of pros in your surrounding area! (You could check the list provided on this site as well!!!)

M

Hello "M" (ChampDancesportKC) and thank you very much for your response.

I understand what you are saying about arm positions conveying emotions and not wanting them the same all of the time for certain moves and I totally agree. I just need something however to get me started. I watch other dancer's arms, and try to imitate, but it feels awkward to fling my arm off to the side during a cross-over break for example, and it looks wrong. I need someone to observe me, help me fix what I'm doing and give me some basics and pointers.

I have studied with just men pros so your suggestion to find a lady to teach me and video tape the lesson is most helpful. I think some of the technical breakdown combined with the visual and having a tape to review would be exactly what I would be looking for. Your suggestion to know what I want is also helpful. I like it all...competition, showcases, and social, but for arm positioning here, I'm looking mostly for help with competitions and to some extent in showcases.

If you recommend anyone in particular, I would be interested in your suggestions. I live in the NW Ohio area, so SW Michigan, Indiana, or the rest of Ohio would cover areas I could travel in a day for a lesson (and I will also look around on this site).

Many thanks again for your response...I really appreciate it!

If you go to dancevision.com and check out the video by Bob and Julia they do a wondrful job on breaking down how your arms move in relation to the body. You don't just Fling your arms out they move because of something that your body has done to create the arm movement. The dance videos that you can purchase from Dance Vision or wonderful training tools but nothing is like an instructors training. Good luck.

Awkward looking (and feeling) arms are the inevitable result of the actions being isolated to the arms themselves. To make arms feel natural, they must appear to be an extension of the movement created within the body.

There are designated "positions" of the arms as outlined in most ballet texts (first, second, fifth, etc), and these can be used as a starting point. But generally you'll do a lot less moving in and out of these various positions than you might expect, instead spending more time maintaining single position and allowing it to be affected by the actions of the body.

For example, you can simply hold your arms in second position (out at your sides) and dance most any Latin movement (eg Rumba Walks, Cucarachas, Cha Cha basic, etc), making them look very dynamic without ever deliberately moving them or changing positions. The key to making your arms look dynamic rather than stuck stiffly out at your sides is whether or not they're responding to the body action. So before you can ever develop dynamic, natural looking arms in Latin, your first job is to make sure that your Latin hip and body action is working right.

Any Latin teacher who works on your arms independently of your hip and body action, giving you specific arm positions to think about, is using a quick-fix approach to emulate the correct action. This is about as effective as teaching you foot patterns in lieu of true leading and following... it works in a pinch, and might fool someone at a glance. But ultimately it won't get you very far. Arm movements, like any other technique, are much easier to understand when you study the underlying factors at work.

Try this exercise: Stand with your feet together, arms to your sides. Bend the right knee, and notice that the left hip stretches up and back while the right side settles down and forward. A beginner would allow the whole body to rotate with the hips, but if you understand Latin movement, you know that the upper body must oppose the hips so that in effect, it stays perfectly still. With the proper opposition of the upper body, you should feel a very strong stretch of the lat muscle on your right side, while the same muscle on the left will squeeze and contract.

The muscles in the back should, in turn, affect the arms. Feeling the squeeze of the lat on the left side should give you the feeling of rotating the upper arm and shoulder down and under (effectively turning the underside of your arm up toward the ceiling). At the same time, the stretch of the right lat gives the right arm a feeling of turning over forward (effectively turning the underside of the arm somewhat backwards). This alone is enough to create a solid and natural arm motion, but it can also extend to the forearms by way of a certain amount of bending and straightening the elbows -- as long as the forearms never upstage the upper arms and back, which are the real cause of the action.

The above is just one example of arms being motivated by the body. The same theory holds for actions not related to Latin hip motion (such as a spin, a pivot, or any of various ballroom style movements). There are too many possibilities to discuss here, so I won't bother to try. Just remember the main concept: Arms follow the body. Never arbitrarily place an arm in a position; Always arrive in a position because it is an extension of the movement of your body.

Whatever style of dancing you pursue, be it Latin, Ballroom, Int'l style or American, look for instructors who use this approach to arm styling. Your arms look more natural, but more importantly, your understanding of the inner-workings will carry you through *all* movements, not just the patterns you have been taught.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson

Hello Jonathan and Dragon,
I wanted to respond to you both to thank you for your posts. Dragon, I will check out that video you mentioned; thank you for the tip...it's much appreciated.

Jonathan, thank you for taking the time to write such a long and thoughtful response. I will try the exercise you suggest. I also understand what you are saying about wanting a "quick fix" approach to my question.

I was a professional musician (instrumental) prior to starting dance. I had never danced at all until I started taking a class 2 years ago, and then started taking private dance lessons 1 year ago. I think my frustration about my arms is that I can see what I want them to look like when I watch other dancers but I'm not where I want to be yet. I'm learning that dancing, especially without any background in moving my body, is something that takes time to develop. On an intellectual level, I know this from having another musical skill. I'm also a somewhat shy person, so learning to be comfortable with the body movement is something that is not natural to me (but is a challenge that I am enjoying very much).

Sometimes I get impatient that I do not grasp new concepts right away or that I can't do the movement correctly right away, but I also know that in time, the movements that feel awkward become easier...I have experienced this already in the time I have been dancing.

I do understand what you are saying about the arms being an extension of the body movement. And my instructor has mentioned this to me and I'm starting to feel this and can move them better than I could a few months ago, for example.

Your message reinforces for me that I need to be more patient and remember that developing this skill takes time. Part of the joy of dancing is when I finally can do something I've worked on. And I was just mentioning to my instructor the other day, that each time I get something, there is more and more and more to learn...

I never knew dancing was so involved and complex until I started doing it.
The pros make it look so easy...

In any event, thank you very much for the response...it was most helpful and much appreciated. I also wanted to tell you that I think the web site is a great resource for ballroom dancers. I have purchased a dress from the ads and this is the first time I posted to the discussion board, with very good results.

Thank you again!