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push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by LFCirillo
4/30/2008  4:56:00 PM
So I keep trying to remeber to not have my hands like jello but its harder then it looks. I often forget to constantly have push and pull feeling with my instructor .. anybody have any tips or exercises I can do to help me remeber. thanks!
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by phil.samways
5/1/2008  3:52:00 AM
Hi Cirillo
this is a very interesting point as the correct 'giving' of the hands can affect the top line greatly and improve the shape.
I can only give you my tips based on my experiences of learning. I'd be very interested to hear views from a professional teacher.
A lot of skills are a matter of developing good habits, and losing old, 'bad' habits. I would suggest you ask your teacher to point out the figures which show this lack of 'giving' most strongly. Then dance those figures over and over again (possibly even on your own as well as with a partner) thinking of NOTHING except this "push and pull" feeling you mention, so that you get the habit of doing it for these particular figures. After a while, the good habit will spread to all your figures. It will change your top line, and you will have to get used to your different shaping too.
At least you're dancing with a teacher, who would have this skill already. Imagine 2 people dancing together and trying to develop this skill at the same time!!
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by dheun
5/1/2008  1:58:00 PM
I don't teach for a living, but do it as a moonlighting gig in the evening. I too will be interested to hear from the more experienced teachers on this topic, as I am not certain that a "constant" push-pull feeling is necessary, unless you simply mean there is enough resistance and pressure being felt to pick up on the man's lead. That is one thing I notice with beginners is that the arms get too limp and there is no real "feel" going on. I usually demonstrate what kind of pressure should be taking place by asking the lady to push toward my hands a bit, and when I feel there is a good level of resistance, enoug so to pick up on signals, I tell her that is where I want her pressure to be on a consistent basis. The other thing that I feel is pretty important over time is that the man actually understands that much of his "leading" will be with the right hand/arm, as opposed to just triggering moves with the left hand with pressure signals.
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by Serendipidy
5/1/2008  3:09:00 PM
dheun. If you can find your way to Slavik and Karina narrated by Corky Ballas. I found it by googling Slavik and Karina then to Dance Video Archive for Learning. (Its seven down ) They show exactly how a Chasse in the Cha should look. Also they show how the lady can be led without any hand hold at all as well as a left hand and a right hand for the same steps.
With a firm wrist and arm , if I were to touch you with one finger only with a presure of 2 out of 10 that is all the signal that you would need through your hand to tell your partner to step back. Nothing looks worse than a heavy handed guy.The point I am making here is can you move a door with one finger tip by applying just the slightest of pressure. The same also with pulling. Whilst you are looking at Slavik can you see on the one count exactly when the flat of the foot touches down. The footwork is Ball Flat. Ball Flat. Ball Flat. It's the middle one. See how delayed the lowering is. And look at those hips move. Something else to look for is how the Chasses are taken on a diagonal and not square. This information may help on how to look at instructions from videos on any style on dancing. Good Luck.
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by cdroge
5/2/2008  6:12:00 AM
It is my understanding that the lead comes from the whole frame,since our weight is over the balls of the feet we should have a slight lean towards each other, this lean should be maintained most of the time moving back as well as forward. Since we are leading with the whole frame the lead will come from the ball of the foot .
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by Serendipidy
5/2/2008  4:35:00 PM
cdroge. If you are wearing men's Latin shoes. Half the problem is solved because the weight will be over the balls of the feet. If you sometimes practise in ordinary ballroom shoes, not such a good idea for obvious reasons.
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by cdroge
5/3/2008  5:37:00 AM
How many people at a dance change their shoes for each dance. Fine at a competition.
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by dheun
5/3/2008  6:24:00 AM
Leading with the whole frame and understanding concept of leading with the ball of the foot is all excellent guidance and teaching of proper technique. I have no qualms at all about that, however, the types of beginners I encounter would be totally lost, and probably frustrated, on such a concept. The connection in the arms and hands are tricky enough to get across, let alone getting them to keep connected near the hip and stepping in stride and into each other. That all comes at a later date, and for some who don't stick with it, they never get to that point.
I usually tell the students that those techniques "are coming" but I want them to get simple stuff mastered first. Does anyone think that's a mistake to go slow on that?
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by Waltz123
5/4/2008  2:50:00 PM
It's never a mistake to go slow. In fact, is it extremely unwise to inundate beginners with heaps of technical information and pointless exercises intended to polish the skills of professional dancers. That's the surest way to scare away a student who may otherwise have someday become that polished professional had there been some enjoyment and entertainment value along the way, especially in the beginning.

In the end it all comes down to balance. On the one hand, in my independent studio I've seen teacher after teacher shoot himself in the foot by demanding too much too early, and losing the student to frustration or boredom. On the other hand, I coach the staff of a chain school whose motto is "fast, fun and easy", and take that concept to the extreme. My main emphasis with them is to be *more* technical, because their ability to hold on to students beyond the bronze level is abysmal.

Weight connection is extremely important for effective leading and following in open position, and can't be avoided for too long. A certain set of very basic patterns can be done without it -- more, I suppose, if you're dancing a pre-determined routine. But I wouldn't wait too long before introducing a few very simple exercises, such as stationary push & pull changes, and basic walks forward or back while maintaining either push or pull. These are simple enough so as not to be too intimidating or frustrating, so long as you introduce it in small doses and allow the technique to make its own way into actual application through permeation only. I'd save the weight connection stuff in actual dancing for a little later. It's amazing how much technique built up through basic exercises will end up in one's dancing without ever having practiced the application. Often (though not always), the exercise is enough.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
Re: push and pull feeling with the hands
Posted by dheun
5/5/2008  7:40:00 AM
That's good advice Jonathan, and should help the original poster of this question, LFCirillo, as well.
In the long run, each student is different and I guess the trick is to know how fast or slow you should go with each one.
Some get information overload and kind of shut down on you. Others want to learn faster than you think they should. And then there are the few who understand it, get it right and most importantly-- practice.
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