The following comments are not intended to offend anyone, it is just a discussion point. Feel free to voice your opinion.

Guys, how often do you try to lead the "move of the week/group class move" in your weekly dance social ? I have attended group classes at more than 1 studio, where the move taught in class, never makes it out onto the dance floor. I am not even talking about a leader trying the move out, they never even attempt it. Isn't group class a waste of time then ? Why do we attend group class then ?
Followers, in general, do you see guys attempting to lead the new moves from group class ? I realize that we will not like all the moves taught in group class, but you have to like some of them. I am even tempted to say that this is the starting point of why so many students choose to compete with their instructor ( pro / am ). This might be a sensitive point, but at the end of the day, the only person you feel comfortable dancing with is your instructor. What will you do once you quit your private lessons ? Will you be able to continue dancing with other people at the same dance level as with your instructor ? I understand that your instructor becomes your "partner" as such, but you will never learn to adjust your leading/following skills if you dance with only 1 person on a consistent basis. I am not against pro/am, don't get me wrong, i am just wondering why the ratio of competitors in am/am vs pro/am is so different. And yes, i understand that "finding a partner" is not something that happens over night, but that can not be the only reason. And not everybody wants to compete.....

Any thoughts on this ?

I attend socials attended by a mixed group of studios. Often, I can pick out the gentlemen from the same studio, because I'll be lead thru the same combination in a particular dance. I'll even get a "I just learned so and so, can I try it out?" This can be further complicated by the international/american issue. For example, "Do you know a New Yorker? No, but I'm perfectly adept at crossovers!"

Alright already...I have to step in to defend pro/am dancing! I certainly agree that there are studios out there (I'm not naming names of course) that charge reprehensible amounts for attending competitions. They hide the actual event costs, quadruple the airfare, overcharge for the instructor and anything else that they can think of.

However, there are also plenty of reputable studios, largely independent, who are straight up honest with students! Our studio prepares a complete invoice for any comp. showing where every single dime is going. Anything you pay for you deserve to understand! This is still rather unpopular with some teachers, since they don't like their students (having talked to our students) to know how much they are really being charged. It is the way of the future though, and I personally know of many studios that are changing their ways.

Ballroom dancing is becoming Dancesport, and it will probably save the entire American dance system.

The move of the week...yes, I see lots of men leading the "move of the week". Honestly sometimes we instructors do get together and just "make-up" the move of the week. That is why you pay to come to group classes...so that you can expand your repertoire of patterns and improve your lead without struggling overmuch. It may take pros an hour to put together an amalgamation or pattern that an amateur probably couldn't have put together at all. If your instructors are not encouraging you to use these patterns and get comfortable with them, then maybe they aren't very good instructors. No offense meant of course.

I am simply a bit chagrined. Consider the metaphor...Obviously I would feel the most comfortable if I took my taxes to a professional CPA. I would never expect to match his expertise no matter how familiar I became with tax law. If I had to be audited I would want him standing right there beside me. Now, maybe over time I would get real comfortable with tax law and be able to discuss it intelligibly with others. Still, any point of contention and I would be right back at the doorstep of the CPA. So it is with dancing...yes you will always be more comfortable with your instructor. He/she is a PROFESSIONAL! If you do not force yourself to become comfortable with other partners than your instructor then that is YOUR OWN FAULT!!!

Finally, Tom Phan...you are way off base. I have seen Pro/Am competitors suffer, sacrifice, and just generally work their asses off. Also, not every pro/am student is out there trying to be the next national champion. It takes guts to be a struggling student who simply loves dance (but may not be so good at it) and to go out there in front of judges and an audience...often including your friends and family! Our "older adults" love to dance too...and some of them could probably dance you under the floor!

Champion Dancesport KC

I attend several group classes a week in addition to a private lesson each week.

In general, if I like a step that was taught in class, I start using it immediately. If all elements of the steps are leadable, I'll lead it with followers who weren't at the class; otherwise I'll save it for followers who were at the class.

As to whether I'm really leading the step or not, the best way I've found to check that is to
modify it slightly: change the entrance, change the exit, or change some of the details in the middle of the step.

Even if I don't like an entire amalgamation, smaller pieces of it may be useful. There are any number of "steps of the week" where I didn't like the entire pattern, but some portion of it was nice, and I use that part in combination with some other grouping.

Finally, seeing all of these steps from week to week, I've been learning which components/steps go well together, and which don't. I learn more about proper leading when I know 3 ways to progress from one step into the next, because I have to make the difference between the 3 progressions clear to my follower.

There are a lot of reasons to attend group classes regularly, these are the most obvious ones that occur to me.

Regards,
John

_________
I am not against pro/am, don't get me wrong, i am just wondering why the ratio of competitors in am/am vs pro/am is so different.
_________

I opine that its because anyone with some free time and money to spend (which on occasion means the older adults) can perform in Pro-Am. It takes little time or effort. Often, per my observation only, all they have to do is show up in an elegant, colorful ballgown or a staid but elegant tux. Pro-am events are just a means for professionals to make money (feel free to jump in Johnathan), seldom is their prestige involved, and there is rarely any parity between male and female amateurs competing with corresponding professionals in the same event.

But that is another topic entirely. Allow me to incite some more. We men never lead anyone in the 'move of the week/group class move' because it'd be so predictable. If the lady knows what is coming and does it without our lead, she may as well just do it in front of her bathroom mirror. I'd rather stick to the old tried and tested move of last week/month/century.

Phan, Tom.

While some teachers at some places may teach something that isn't "leadable" on the social dance floor, there are many teachers that do try to teach leadable steps and work hard to find steps that are fun, leadable, interesting and that look nice.

But consider this(speaking on the "social level" here):
In group classes, the teacher needs (hmmm maybe the word is "should") to teach to the Median group level rate of the class, even if the class is geared towards beginners, intermediate level or advanced level dancers. So many students that come in to learn "socially" just want step-step-step-step and don't really care about how to actually get the technique needed to execute the step well. Some students end up in classes that they are not prepared to take because they have not gone through the "beginner fundamentals" of a particular dance, or ANY dance for that matter.

How many classes have you actually been in where a teacher did try to explain the lead or followers part including what the leader and follower should do to be able to better execute the move and you see students looking around the room acting bored or worse, talking over the teacher so not only do they miss what is being said but the student they are dancing with and those around them also miss what is said.

How many students come in to a group class then never see a teacher for a one-on-one (personal/private) lesson to figure out what is going wrong when they attempt the step?

Yes, some studios may be out to "get your money", but many are not. Many teachers are people who have studied and are teaching may be doing this as their source of income; Something they have just always wanted to do, have a passion for. When you are taking lessons it is like going to college.... you pay your tuition, but you will only get out of it what you put into it.

The only way to learn and execute a step well, be it the "step of the week", or the "dance of the month" is to understand your basics, listen to what the teacher is saying and watch what they are doing (50 minute groups can fly by!), ask questions and, if need be, take a private or 2 or 3 or 20. But most of all--get out there and try it out. You won't really know what you are doing "wrong" or better yet what you are doing "right" if you don't get out on the floor and go for it.

Hmm, leading the "move of the week" socially.

Well, first off, I tend to have very negative associations with a concept like "move of the week". For me, a phrase like that implies something transitory, which doesn't teach much in terms of generally applicable concepts. Not that this is always true, but I think we've all seen examples of class material invented just to keep things interesting. I personally have much more interest in something common that might be the 'subject of the week' for further refinement.

I can't speak for other men, but what I choose to lead socially depends a lot on what I think would be enjoyable to try with the person I'm dancing with. If I'm not fairly confident in something new - including how to transitition into and out of it, I'm unlikley to lead it. And if it's at all tricky to follow, I'm unlikley to try it except with someone I did it succesfully with in class, or someone who I know to have excellent technical and following skills.

If you want to try class material at a social with someone who was in the class, then it might be worth specficially asking. One thing socials can be very good for is practice at how to mix new material (once it is reasonable comfortable) with the more familiar material - it's like saying that a word isn't really known until you can use it in conversation. So I might take a phrase out of a class routine and use it down one wall, then do something completely different, but come back and borrow part of the routine again later. Or if there is a figure that I don't like, or consider unsuitable for the person I'm dancing with, I might make a more appropraite substitution.

Bruce, you are very smart.

You have struck gold with your instructor. It is truely someone that wants you to dance for whatever reason you might want to dance (it is not their business anyway), not for the sake of earning more money nor trying to hold you back. If i was still in Florida, i would have considered practicing and possibly partnering with you. You have a great attitude as a leader and i think it is evident that your heart and soul are in dance.
Happy dancing !

I'm with Tom on this one, the women who attend the class expect you to lead the new move, I'd rather wait a week or 2 before attempting it; also it gives me a little time to work out any bugs with my instructor so I am leading it properly.


As for being capable of leading someone other than your instructor a good female instructor will force the student to actually lead the steps. When I learn something new my instructor will run on 'auto-pilot' until I understand exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, and doing it correctly... then she actually starts following. If I don't actually lead the step she won't follow, or will follow a wrong lead then show me how I mislead it and how to correct it. So far I've had no trouble leading other ladies in anything I know.
While I don't compete, although I would like to try it, I'm guessing it has to do with the finding a partner problem. While there may be plenty of available women to partner with the problem is finding one with whom your individual style is compatible (any ladies in S/W Florida looking for a partner?).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by groupie:
Guys, how often do you try to lead the "move of the week/group class move" in your weekly dance social ? I have attended group classes at more than 1 studio, where the move taught in class, never makes it out onto the dance floor. I am not even talking about a leader trying the move out, they never even attempt it. Isn't group class a waste of time then ? Why do we attend group class then ?
[QUOTE]

There are alot of reasons for this. Sometimes when I'm in a group class, I recognize that a pattern being taught is difficult/impossible to lead socially. Some group class instructors will take pieces from routines and use them to compose a pattern that they teach in a group class.

Another problem is group classes are often evaluated by how much is taught in how little time. This often encourages instructors to skip over lead and follow clarifications to get through a pattern completely.

What are ways to make this improves this? You can ask questions about lead and follow during the class, if the instructor is not making it clear. This encourages everyone (leader and followers) to think about how to make the pattern or elements of the pattern work on the social floor.

I also agree with JohnS that breaking the pattern up into smaller elements is a good idea. I generally will try to lead a small piece of the pattern. If they are unable to follow, I will try leading it again try to clarify my lead. If someone is able to follow then I will lead that piece with another element added on.

I know some leaders who really are vigilent about learning the art of social dancing. They remember what patterns specific partners have followed before and try to mix in a combination of those and one or two new ones. These guys are the ones that regardless of how they look, always are popular dance partners.

In the end I think group classes are effective for people who already take privates or have enough personal dedication to work the lead and follow details out with a social partner. The problem is that there is an entire population of social dancers who don't take privates and don't spend enough time of learning the principles of lead and follow.

Happy Dancing,

E