Jonathan. A question for you. According to the technique book in the Modern waltz, the first step into a Natural Turn is rise at the end of one, which is on the first beat. But i see couples lowering at the beginning of one, then try to rise at the end of that beat. They appear to dig themselves into a hole which is hard to get out of. Or they don't lower enough on three and try to do it all on one. Surely i am as low as ever i am likely to be on the third beat of the bar of music i am leaving. If we use the analogy of a child on a swing, with my arms above my head grasping the seat of the swing, that is three. At the bottom of the swing is and. As i push upwards , there is one. In short without three there is no one. This of course is if i am trying to do the step correctly. Now it begins to get a bit tricky. The person on the inside of the turn, who in this case is the lady, has an entirely different technique. NFR on one. I will leave that one for you.

"i see couples lowering at the beginning of one, then try to rise at the end of that beat."

Are you seeing an actual "lowering" fo the body or a compression into a foot in order to rise?

Beginner dancers often see a move differently from what it actually is. They may be attempting to dance what they think they see rather than what is actually done.

For instance, in Waltz instead of having a slightly bent knee as "neutral" and compressing up, some beginners will have a straight leg as neutral and will bounce down, then come up. Because they don't "see" the relaxes knee and the ankle pressure taking them up, they think a straight leg is all the farther up they can get, so they have to do a deep knee bend to get any change in level.

I have seen this in Beginners in Nightclub 2 Step also, which has ankle compression and rise in it also. Instead of relaxing into a bent leg and compressing up, they have straight legs as their highest point and bounce down to get change in level instead of compressing up.

I attended a lecture a few years ago given by Steven Hillier. He said that he keeps his upper body up as he lowers. The lowering is through the knees and ankles. If you allow the upper body to lower it will always beat your knees. Then we know what will stick out. He also went on to say. "That as he rises he keeps the upper body down ". In other words, I am still quoting, "He stays up to come down, and stays down to come up. All the work is being done through your undercarriage ".

I've been taught to lower on beat 1, start to rise on beat 2 and continue to rise into beat 3, lowering at the end of beat 3.
Many dancers (myself included) can get into the habit of 'bobbing' up and down because the rise is too abrupt.
I remember buying a video by Marcus Hilton (ex-world champion) and playing the start of his slow waltz in slow-motion, frame-by-frame. I was stunned (at the time) by the amount of knee bend he used.
The transition between beat 3 and the next beat 1 has been a 'problem' for me. On the one hand, the lowering at the end of beat 3 offers a smooth transition into the loewring on the next beat 1. On the other hand, the end of beat 3 is meant to be a 'gathering' step.
I'm not the most experienced of dancers, and i'm looking forward to Jonathan's reply

Phil, I read an article in a UK Dance Publication. The well known professional who wrote this said. That Victor Silvester introduced the Natural Turn in December 1922, that was the day that the Modern Waltz as we know it today was born. She in this article said that today 70 odd years later experts are still arguing how it should be done. So what hope is there for us poor mortals. I will add this though. According to the technique book there is no mention of going down on one, only rise at the end of one. As there is a lowering on the previouse three, I take that to mean that I am already down, so why would I go down again. I did pose this question to a visiting professional who said You only lower once. I then asked how low do I go. Answer. Has low as you like, provided you can rise comfortably and with style. Happy Dancing

I think rise @ e/o 1 could be a foot rise enabling the release of the heel from the floor w/o body rise until the LF has rolled from the inside edge to the ball (on count 2) then there is body rise. cont. to rise on three...lower at the e/o 3. maybe?

This sounds to be what i'm doing.
Going back to my earlier comment about the Hilton video - if you take a long stride on beat one, with soft knees, it's inevitable that the upper body will lower.
At a lesson i had once with a good UK professional, i was dancing my slow waltz, which at that time started with a simple whisk. He stopped me immediately and said that my very first movement should be a lowering as my standing leg softened to provide the forward drive for beat 1.
Another teacher spent many hours with me practising natural turns, getting me to lower on 1 and only START to rise at beginning of 2, continue to rise during 2 ,being up at the start of 3 and lowering at the end of 3.
An earlier comment about keeping upper body high while lowering with the knees is an important one. It's very easy (as i know to my cost!) to 'slump' down when lowering. I'm not sure i fully understand the other comment about keeping the upper body 'down' while rising.

To Phil. Staying down with the upper body simply means don't try to lift. You would be surprised to see how some people lift through their their shoulders, and not let the undercarrage do the work. In other words, as you would lower, so you will rise.

Hi everyone! Melissa Atkinson here, filling in for Jonathan. (Perhaps he will have two cents to add later)There are a couple of potentially confusing issues here, and a myriad of pitfalls to be avoided.To begin at the beginning dealing with Man's part only, the ISTD describes rise and fall for 1-3 of the Natural Turn as: commence to rise end of 1, continue to rise 2 & 3, lower end of 3. You really have to begin on the 3, because the you must begin with the lowering. (And you must remember when interpretting book technique that a majority of your time is spent in motion between the steps, rather than actually ON a step.)When you have completed your lowering on 3, you should not lower any further. There is a tendency to do this accidentally because as you divide your legs, you have to actually extend them to maintain your level. If you leave them bent you will continue to sink. So, your legs will be extended between your feet, and as you arrive on step 1 your right knee will bend. The "commence to rise at end of 1" is the rolling to the ball of the right foot as you move toward step 2, and while the legs will extend between steps 1 & 2, the leg rise will not truly begin until after the weight transfer onto step 2, at which point the rising action and the swing will bring the feet together for step 3.IMO the highest point of rise is at the moment of weight transfer onto step 3. From there, a gradual lowering is immediately commenced. Which side of this argument one lands on depends on which fault one is more afraid of....weak feet or lowering on the 1. I'm usually more concerned about lowering on the 1, (which I'm sure is the trouble that you're having, Phil.) Continued lowering on step 1 will interfere with the creation of the upswing, and basically botch up the entire action.I can absolutely agree with Don's quote from Steven Hillier. This idea of opposition between the upper body and lower body is very commonly used in ballet, and helps to maintain both grounding and stretch while also preventing any rise and fall "flapping." :)))Hope this helps!-Melissa

Hi Melissafirst of all - isn't it brilliant to have a site like this where such topics can be discussed. I know of no other site which comes close in this regard.OK - i'm remembering 2 things as i write this:-1)watching Marcus and Karen Hilton do their slow waltz on "Developing the Essentials" and studying it frame-by-frame2)a class i had where i was stopped after the first bar and told that my first movement should be a lowering - this lead to me re-thinking what i was doing and, i'm pretty sure, improving my dancing (at least, my slow waltz!!)After reding what you said, Melissa, i went into the corridoor here at work and tried out a few movements (I've long stopped bothering about the looks on my work colleagues' faces) to try to rationalise what i was doing relative to your comments.I plant my feet 'on the beat' with my right heel landing as i count "1" (this is for natural turn). As my foot is planted, my body is at it's lowest point(i think), and my knees are fairly flexed.However, my movement immediately prior to this plant is during the end of beat 3 (i count the half beats when i practise, and i call this 3&).So strictly, this lowering could be called the end-of-3 lowering. There is much scope for discussion on exactly when in the music feet are planted- indeed, when the beats are. I always assume the beats are counted like the written notes. At the instant the first note is struck, i count "1" and the gap to the 2nd note is 1&, etc.My mind is boggling, so time for coffee.Still not sure what this opposition between upper and lower body is all about, but then there's always something to learn.